Movement and reloads

[ATMester]

I wonder if any of those yay sayers are going to shoot a Single Stack at the Limited Nationals in Vegas. After all, those moving reloads don't add up any time.

[j1b]

It's been generally established that the time difference is nominal.

I haven't done the drill in years. Hell, since Arizona, but when we did the equation was simple. If you hit the load the time difference in either scenario presented would be nominal. If you miss the load, the time difference is pretty huge. The lesson? Hit the load. I agree with Matt 100% though. The difference is almost not calcuable.

But I think the scenario is too simple anyhow. And would be impossible to discerne an actionable situation on paper. We're all visual, 99% of what you can do is a judgement call of what you see when you're at the match.

My point being this - I shoot primarily production these days. In general, if I'm moving, I'm reloading. I don't necessarily want to reload. But given the choice of loading while moving or loading static - I'll load while moving. I know that for me, loading while moving is . . . oh . . . I'd say about 1 -1.4 seconds faster than doing a static load.

Even if doing a reload while moving were slower, which I don't believe it is (assuming you hit the load), that's never really been the question. And I've never really thought the question was could I run faster or run slower depending on if I was loading or not. The question is, which is faster - loading on the move or loading static after/before the move. I can't recall a time ever when I though the better decision was to load static and then move. Particularly given the fact that I don't think there's a noticeable time difference in the movement if you're loading or not.

Jack

[CAB33]

I've put it to the timer and moving right(right handed), a reload does not add any time for me.

I didn't time it going to the left, but I would guess that it would add time since I have not practiced reloads moving left much.

[j1b]

I wonder if any of those yay sayers are going to shoot a Single Stack at the Limited Nationals in Vegas. After all, those moving reloads don't add up any time.

This gets me thinking though. There is a time difference on many stages, or at least I believe there would be, if I were shooting limited 10/prod/SS versus a full limited gun. There's something there. Again, it's all contingent upon the stage - but in general when I'm trying to beat a limited shooter with my production gun I feel like I have two major obstacles to overcome. One is all the loads. The other is minor. If that's the case, yet I believe there is no time difference between a loading move and a non-loading move, then I have to reconcile where the delta is . . .

Hmmm - I must ponder some more.

Jack

[bbbean]

This is probably my favorite reload video.

TJ in Florida:

I shoot just like that, only not as fast and with mikes.

[Jake Di Vita]

Figure on a half second extra to do a reload, no matter what, when it comes down to match time.

Attention, speed during the run, etc.

[Mo Hepworth]

I think it adds a small fraction of time but that is dependant on the mag change capabilities of the shooter. Something not mentioned which I think can make a difference is where the mag is on your body. Right out in front,..around the hip,...or at the hipbone (ië: production OR IPSC standard division).

I have found going to one of my 3rd or 4th mag can add time. I can not snatch it as easy as the first mag.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Mo Hepworth

[uscbigdawg]

Rich

[jkrispies]

I think it adds a small fraction of time but that is dependant on the mag change capabilities of the shooter. Something not mentioned which I think can make a difference is where the mag is on your body. Right out in front,..around the hip,...or at the hipbone (ië: production of IPSC standard division).

I have found going to one of my 3rd or 4th mag can add time. I can not snatch it as easy as the first mag.

After reading for two pages, I'm glad somebody brought this factor up, or it would have been me! If I do a perfect reload pulling from Mag pouch 1 and the distance is more than 3 steps, I'm certainly going to lose time compared to no reload, but I doubt that it will be the deciding factor in the match after my other screw-ups are taken into account! On the other hand, if I'm twisting myself into a pretzle trying to search for mag pouch #4 (I shoot single stack) which is way the heck in the small of my back, it doesn't matter how many steps I'm taking-- my rhythm is probably going to be knocked out of whack not only for the reload but also for the run.

[Matt Cheely]

I'm not really sure why we're talking about this, since I only reload when I need to, not just for fun.

[L-10_shooter]

All of us L-10, single stack and production shooters only reload when needed.

[bkeeler]

Then why do we need all these 20,22 round mags for limited? Why a big stick for open?

If the reload doesn't cost a little time then we should not need all the high caps.

It has been said about shooting a wide body 45 is a slight disadvantage because of capacity...........I thought the main reason to shoot a 40 in limited was because you have more capacity.

Edit to add:

If I recall correctly I think it was Manny that won a stage because he did not have to reload and everyone else did,or something like that I could be wrong on that though.

BK

Edited April 29, 2009 by bkeeler

[Matt Cheely]

If I recall correctly I think it was Manny that won a stage because he did not have to reload and everyone else did, or something like that I could be wrong on that though.

Sure, it happens. Depends on the stage design, there probably wasn't a good place to reload. It's not that reloading won't cost you time, it's just that given the space, it won't be a detriment.

[badchad]

I was working on this yesterday with movements with and without a reload moving 4 yards. My first try times moving to the right reloading cost me .19 seconds. Moving left .31 seconds. Moving forward 0.01 seconds. Backwards turning right .17 seconds. Backwards turning left .67 seconds.

I’m going to work to lessen the difference, but I’m also going to work to increase my speed without the reload so…

[Jake Di Vita]

I'd say if you're moving without a reload as fast as you're moving with a reload, you aren't moving without a reload fast enough.

I really doubt that inserting a fine motor skill into a hugely gross motor skill movement won't have an effect on the time it takes to complete for the simple fact alone that your acceleration doesn't happen as aggresively or as quickly.

[JThompson]

Figure on a half second extra to do a reload, no matter what, when it comes down to match time.

Attention, speed during the run, etc.

More like 1.2 for me Jake and that's a good one.

[S&W627shooter]

Being a revolver shooter, I have pondered the movement and reload issue quite a bit. I take it as a given that I will have to reload 3-5 times a stage on average. That casued me to consider moving then reload, reload then move, or reload while moving. Generally I reload prior to moving because it has so far been faster and feels smoother to me. The idea of reloading while moving makes sense to me in theory since doing two things at the same time should save time, but the reality of multi-tasking is much different than the theory in my experience.

Then again most people that see me shoot would say that I am not concerned with speed.

The mantra in ICORE is that if you are reloading, you should be moving. You do have to watch the muzzle with a revo reload, but a standing reload is never a good thing.

[VegasOPM]

I have read the OP about six times and I can't figure out the question. It would appear that the sole question is whether it is faster to just move than to do a reload while moving- ummmm... YES. 100% of your focus can be given to looking at where you are going and moving- versus dividing up your focus and attention between multiple tasks.

The truth is, I can't see a situation where I would have to make that decision- which is essentially "do I reload or not?" If I have to reload, I have to reload and I might as well be doing it while I have to be doing something other than shooting. If I don't have to reload, why would I?!?

[pjb45]

This is a very interesting discussion with lots of opinions.

Here is a fact: At the MidCoast Dual Championship a few years ago, Taran B and Dave S were shooitng SS and Production.

Since it was set up to be SS friendly, both probably did the same number of mag changes. If I remember correctly, Dave crushed Taran in the overall.

Dave thought the answer was in his mag capacity being higher and thus able to risk more. This probably plays into the psychology of shooting a stage more than the actual time it takes to change a mag while moving.

If you look at the average shooter in Limited as compared to SS/L10, it seems like their scores (times) are significantly better. Maybe it is due more to knowing there is a capacity for extra shots for the Limited shooters whereas in SS/10/P there is less of a margin for error.

I offer Taran and Dave as two top shooters, whose skills are approximately the same, shooting the same course of fire, with the only real difference being mag capacity. Maybe it is not the reload mechniques so much as the mental aspects of the COF when you are at the top. For the rest of us, I think it is both the psychology of the reload and the mechniques that slow us down even more.

[G-ManBart]

I have read the OP about six times and I can't figure out the question. It would appear that the sole question is whether it is faster to just move than to do a reload while moving- ummmm... YES. 100% of your focus can be given to looking at where you are going and moving- versus dividing up your focus and attention between multiple tasks.

The truth is, I can't see a situation where I would have to make that decision- which is essentially "do I reload or not?" If I have to reload, I have to reload and I might as well be doing it while I have to be doing something other than shooting. If I don't have to reload, why would I?!?

From the first post:

The basic question is this: Does adding a reload to movement cost you time compared to moving without a reload?

We're not talking about a specific scenario in a stage, just whether there is a time difference between the two actions....the intent was really nothing more than that.

There are times when you don't absolutely have to reload, but it might be a good idea depending on the stage. Heck, a 20 round stage with an Limited gun that holds 21 rounds total....it's all paper, but a few sorta tight shots and few you'll take on the move. Do you want to throw a reload in there someplace if it's convenient or are you willing to shoot it with only one makeup round in the gun? Are you trying to overtake another shooter for the overall win? Say it's your best buddy, you know how well he shoots and how you compare and he just smoked his run...great points, great time. You know you have to shoot it to the max of your ability to hang with him. If it doesn't add ANY time at all, the answer is sure, I'll throw a reload in somewhere cause it's insurance just in case right? If it does add time you have to decide whether it's worth the risk to go for it and put down the fastest possible time and give up the insurance of extra rounds.

Heck, now that I think about it, they ought to offer a special prize to anybody that wins Limited or Open with a skinny gun at an Area match or higher. Call it the Underdog Top Dog award "Underdog, Top Dog in Limited is:" Maybe get Under Armor to sponsor it? Man, that's catchy....the Under Armor Underdog, Top Dog Award! Sweet!

Hey Rich, that one's calling your name (nickname) dude!

[Matt Cheely]

At the Michigan Sectional last year, Bob Vogel shot L10 while I was shooting Limited. We wanted to compare, and decided there were maybe 2 places where Limited had the upper hand due to capacity, and I believe our results were within a couple percent. Had we both been shooting the same division, we would have been almost on top of each other.

[VegasOPM]

G-Man,

I undertsand now. It is funny, but I have had that exact quandary now that you mention it. I know that it will add time for me, so I plan for an additional second if I do the "insurance reload"- an additional 2 seconds for a standing reload.

[Ben Stoeger]

I think that in theory, reloads don’t really hurt movement between boxes that are more than a couple yards apart.

In a match, that tends not to be the case so much. If a guy is shooting lim 10 or production and he starts getting into the pouches that are further back around his body things start to slow down significantly.

[G-ManBart]

I think that in theory, reloads don’t really hurt movement between boxes that are more than a couple yards apart.

In a match, that tends not to be the case so much. If a guy is shooting lim 10 or production and he starts getting into the pouches that are further back around his body things start to slow down significantly.

I shot the our final stage of the day twice at the last match....first time in Open for score and then after everyone was done shooting I ran it with my Production rig just for fun and to compare. It was one reload in Open and four in Production. I was three seconds slower with the Production rig (almost exactly) and it was a solid run with both guns...no real long or hard shots so the dot/comp didn't make a huge difference (some, I'm sure, but not a ton). After the first two reloads I'm reaching back a fair amount.

[johnnybravo]

Hmm. Had to think about this one.

1. I figure no one wants to reload anymore than necessary to reduce the "oops" factor.

2. When I'm moving a short distance, the reload has my primary focus, with moving secondary. I just make sure I'm to the next shooting position before the reload is completed. This doesn't mean I slow down on the reload time.

3. When I''m moving a long distance, moving (fast) has my primary focus, with reloading secondary. I will reload a little slower to ensure the reload is good. I just make sure I'm done with the reload before I get to the next shooting position.

4. Sometimes I will make a "luxury reload" if moving a long distance and the next array(s) will push the limit of my partially depleted mag's remaining number of rounds.

To sum it up, if my move time is going to be longer than my reloads, I can slow down the reload a bit. If my move time is shorter than my reloads, i can step up the reload speed.

Edited April 30, 2009 by johnnybravo