Movement and reloads

[G-ManBart]

I guess the funny thing about this is the origional question is kind of irrelevant (no offence)

In revolver, you can only have 6.

In production (USPSA) and Limited 10 you can only have 10.

In limited it must be a 140 mag, but everyones holds about the same.

In Open you can have a 170 mag and again everyones holds about the same.

So really in whatever division you shoot, you may or may not have to reload on a stage, but everyone in your division has to do it too. In Limited and Open you have more choice of where you are going to do it but A) it WILL be when moving and generally, if it's a good place to do it, everyone in your division will do it there too.

It's relevant for those times when you might consider throwing in an insurance reload that isn't absoutely necessary....more likely in Lim and Open for obvious reasons, but still possible with L-10 and Prod. R,

[38supPat]

Hmmm, I guess but for me there is pretty much no question. If I have 20 in the gun and the course is 17 or 18 rounds, no reload, if it's 19 or 20, reload. The only exception would be based on the difficulty of the shots, not the length of time to do the reload.

[j1b]

I guess the funny thing about this is the origional question is kind of irrelevant (no offence)

In revolver, you can only have 6.

In production (USPSA) and Limited 10 you can only have 10.

In limited it must be a 140 mag, but everyones holds about the same.

In Open you can have a 170 mag and again everyones holds about the same.

So really in whatever division you shoot, you may or may not have to reload on a stage, but everyone in your division has to do it too. In Limited and Open you have more choice of where you are going to do it but A) it WILL be when moving and generally, if it's a good place to do it, everyone in your division will do it there too.

It's relevant for those times when you might consider throwing in an insurance reload that isn't absoutely necessary....more likely in Lim and Open for obvious reasons, but still possible with L-10 and Prod. R,

Yes but then you have to ask the bigger questions.

See, in this gamble the question isn't whether the run with the load takes more time or less time. The question is . . .

Will I have the discpline to see what I need to see to hit all the targets that I need to hit in order to achieve the goals I have for this stage.

In that circumstance the plan for insurance shots pretty much guarantees the need for them.

Jack

[SharonAnne9x23]

you have to reload some time. why not while running? It may slow you down but if you wait until you stop you will do a standing reload, how much time will that cost you? Much more than the difference between running with out reloading and running with reloading I am sure.

[G-ManBart]

I guess the funny thing about this is the origional question is kind of irrelevant (no offence)

In revolver, you can only have 6.

In production (USPSA) and Limited 10 you can only have 10.

In limited it must be a 140 mag, but everyones holds about the same.

In Open you can have a 170 mag and again everyones holds about the same.

So really in whatever division you shoot, you may or may not have to reload on a stage, but everyone in your division has to do it too. In Limited and Open you have more choice of where you are going to do it but A) it WILL be when moving and generally, if it's a good place to do it, everyone in your division will do it there too.

It's relevant for those times when you might consider throwing in an insurance reload that isn't absoutely necessary....more likely in Lim and Open for obvious reasons, but still possible with L-10 and Prod. R,

Yes but then you have to ask the bigger questions.

See, in this gamble the question isn't whether the run with the load takes more time or less time. The question is . . .

Will I have the discpline to see what I need to see to hit all the targets that I need to hit in order to achieve the goals I have for this stage.

In that circumstance the plan for insurance shots pretty much guarantees the need for them.

Jack

I certainly won't debate that rationale, but I can think of some times where it might not be so much about discipline as risk/reward.

A quick example might be a stage where the last array has an activator, one static, a drop turner and a swinger that's fassssst...you want to go activator, static, dropper, swinger and catch the swinger on it's first pass and not wait around for it to come back. You're early in the order and think you can double the swinger, but it's not a sure thing by any means. You obviously want to burn down the stage, but if you decide to go without a reload you don't have any makeup shots and if the swinger proves too fast you're doing a static reload for the makeup shot. Or something along those lines...I just came up with that quickly.

If a reload doesn't slow you down at all...not a bit, then it's a no-brainer to add it somewhere earlier in the stage. If however, it does slow you down, even a little, and you're trying to win the stage, is it worth the risk?

It's the last stage of the Nationals, you're on the last squad and they have new automatic scoring system that updates with current standings every minute. Chris T. (just picked him since he's the current Open champion and posted here but it's not necessarily an Open thing) just went ahead of you, shot an awesome stage (doubled the swinger and never reloaded) and he had you by a couple of points coming into this stage. You need to win the stage to win the match. It comes down to the stage above and you need every single last point and a smokin' fast time to edge ahead of him. What does everybody do and what are they basing that decision on?

Certainly it's not likely most of us will wind up in that spot, but I think it's an interesting question just the same. R,

[XRe]

Certainly it's not likely most of us will wind up in that spot, but I think it's an interesting question just the same. R,

If you're ever in that position, you'll be shooting on the Super Squad at the Open or Limited Nationals, and you'll already know the answers to all these questions. Conversely, if you don't already know the answers to these questions, you're not going to be in this position... You'd do better to get out there and figure out the answers for yourself, rather than debating philosophy... I know the answers, cause I've figured them out on the range for myself....

[G-ManBart]

Certainly it's not likely most of us will wind up in that spot, but I think it's an interesting question just the same. R,

If you're ever in that position, you'll be shooting on the Super Squad at the Open or Limited Nationals, and you'll already know the answers to all these questions. Conversely, if you don't already know the answers to these questions, you're not going to be in this position... You'd do better to get out there and figure out the answers for yourself, rather than debating philosophy... I know the answers, cause I've figured them out on the range for myself....

For me, I know roughly what the difference is. I'm going to go back and refine it after this discussion, but I know what I'm basing my decisions on now...not just guessing.

Clearly though we've got some of those very same Super Squad type folks who don't agree on whether there's a difference and that really shouldn't be the case if we're talking the handful of folks who's skills are at that level. The idea that a moving reload won't slow down one top GM, but it will slow down another doesn't sound right to me.

As I've said all along, those folks are the least likely to see a difference (or it's much smaller for them, if any) and this is more likely applicable to the average Joe/Jane who's not going to do a TT reload as they're busting out of a position. R,

[Jman]

These things remind me of finger prints and snowflakes. None are the same.

Jim

[XRe]

The idea that a moving reload won't slow down one top GM, but it will slow down another doesn't sound right to me.

That's because you're reading black and white, and its really shades of grey. It reflects personal preference, comfort level with moving reloads, and level of risk tolerance. There are shooters for whom it has some impact, and others for which it doesn't - and at some point, it becomes immeasurable, because the difference falls within the error of measurement and repeatability. The GMs that don't get into absolute measuring of skills down to hundredths of seconds and maintaining skill libraries and all of that will tell you that, when they're sharp, it has no effect. The GMs who track everything to the Nth degree will tell you that, when they're sharp, it costs them on average some precise, small amount of time. They're talking the same thing, different language. Depending on their other relative skills, they can make up a tenth or two in various places on a stage, so stuffing a reload appears to have no net effect for them, if they do it sharply, and it enables a better strategy for them based on their abilities and the stage at hand.

Watch different shooters and this will become clear. There are certainly top shooters for whom doing a moving reload appears to have no effect, and others for whom it seems to be significant, if small. You're trying to put all the top guys into a small box, and it doesn't work like that.... it doesn't have to make sense to you, but it is what it is... You're taking different individuals and saying it doesn't make sense that they have different experiences, perceptions, and measurments?...

[smokshwn]

I like that Jack!!!

Bart - You've got Seth and jake. I've got Matt C., Matt B. and Brian agreeing that it's either zero, when properly executed (which was my qualifying statement as well), or not enough to matter.

I do need another single stack. 40 or 9?

Rich

The problem with qualifying statements is exactly that...they are "ifs"

If I hit the load perfectly

If the movement is short/long enough

If the movement is in the "right" direction etc. etc.

Rarely in our sport regardless of the amount of practice we push ourselves through do we have the luxury of performing the"ifs" perfectly on demand.

[G-ManBart]

The idea that a moving reload won't slow down one top GM, but it will slow down another doesn't sound right to me.

That's because you're reading black and white, and its really shades of grey. It reflects personal preference, comfort level with moving reloads, and level of risk tolerance. There are shooters for whom it has some impact, and others for which it doesn't - and at some point, it becomes immeasurable, because the difference falls within the error of measurement and repeatability. The GMs that don't get into absolute measuring of skills down to hundredths of seconds and maintaining skill libraries and all of that will tell you that, when they're sharp, it has no effect. The GMs who track everything to the Nth degree will tell you that, when they're sharp, it costs them on average some precise, small amount of time. They're talking the same thing, different language. Depending on their other relative skills, they can make up a tenth or two in various places on a stage, so stuffing a reload appears to have no net effect for them, if they do it sharply, and it enables a better strategy for them based on their abilities and the stage at hand.

Watch different shooters and this will become clear. There are certainly top shooters for whom doing a moving reload appears to have no effect, and others for whom it seems to be significant, if small. You're trying to put all the top guys into a small box, and it doesn't work like that.... it doesn't have to make sense to you, but it is what it is... You're taking different individuals and saying it doesn't make sense that they have different experiences, perceptions, and measurments?...

No, I'd have to say it's pretty black or white on the finite level. The shades of grey come about when we make judgements and decisions based upon those things like comfort, risk tolerance etc that you mention....but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the absolute fastest method period, nothing else. Sure, we like to do things certain ways or are more comfortable with certain things and maybe want to take less risk, but at the end of it all there's got to be an absolute fastest way regardless of risk or comfort level....the one where there's nothing left to give. Either a person giving 100% can move a set distance doing two things at once (for part of the time) in the same time they can cover the same distance doing only one thing or they can't.

If the shooter you're talking about is already trying to shoot the stage as fast as they can there shouldn't be anywhere left for them to make up a tenth or two should there? If there is they're not really pulling out all the stops which is what I'm talking about....nothing left, fastest physically possible.

I guess there might be some wacky person with unusual arms and legs, but if you're reloading while trying to get going it's got to slow you down somewhat in some situations. If you're arms are busy reloading they aren't driving towards the next area and we all would probably agree that you can move faster by driving your arms than having them wiggling around up at your sternum right? Sprinters are the ultimate (as far as humans go) in covering a set, short distance in the minimum time....no way they could do a 40 as fast if they started out with a hand scratching their ear which is less complex than doing a reload.

Is this going to make the difference in most matches or most stages? Maybe not...heck, probably not, but it's another piece of data to enter into the equation when you're looking at a stage. R,

[XRe]

No, I'd have to say it's pretty black or white on the finite level. The shades of grey come about when we make judgements and decisions based upon those things like comfort, risk tolerance etc that you mention....

Go back and re-read my post - I'm not at all talking about making any decisions on approaching a stage. You're talking about comparing feedback from different GMs that seems to be at odds with one another (feedback offered based on the original question you posted). I'm telling you why it seems to be at odds... but isn't.

Of course, if you want to continue to argue with yourself about it, feel free...

I'll remind you that the original question was: "The basic question is this: Does adding a reload to movement cost you time compared to moving without a reload?", not "What's the absolute fastest way to move, with or without a reload?" That's what everyone (but, seemingly, you) have been talking about....

but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the absolute fastest method period, nothing else.

At the level you're at in the game, that should be immediately apparent and obvious without asking the question.

but it's another piece of data to enter into the equation when you're looking at a stage. R,

If you're trying to add that into some notion of how to approach a stage, you are seriously frittering away time and brain power on something that doesn't matter. The absolute fastest way to do it is with no reload, no extra shots, no hesitations (due to being careful to avoid extra shots) and no malfunctions. Period....

Like I said before... when that piece of information actually matters for you (that is, when you're on the Super Squad, one stage left to shoot, and you need to swing for the fences to win the match or not), you'll know it... until then...

(edit to fix a typo)

Edited May 4, 2009 by XRe

[j1b]

I guess the funny thing about this is the origional question is kind of irrelevant (no offence)

In revolver, you can only have 6.

In production (USPSA) and Limited 10 you can only have 10.

In limited it must be a 140 mag, but everyones holds about the same.

In Open you can have a 170 mag and again everyones holds about the same.

So really in whatever division you shoot, you may or may not have to reload on a stage, but everyone in your division has to do it too. In Limited and Open you have more choice of where you are going to do it but A) it WILL be when moving and generally, if it's a good place to do it, everyone in your division will do it there too.

It's relevant for those times when you might consider throwing in an insurance reload that isn't absoutely necessary....more likely in Lim and Open for obvious reasons, but still possible with L-10 and Prod. R,

Yes but then you have to ask the bigger questions.

See, in this gamble the question isn't whether the run with the load takes more time or less time. The question is . . .

Will I have the discpline to see what I need to see to hit all the targets that I need to hit in order to achieve the goals I have for this stage.

In that circumstance the plan for insurance shots pretty much guarantees the need for them.

Jack

I certainly won't debate that rationale, but I can think of some times where it might not be so much about discipline as risk/reward.

A quick example might be a stage where the last array has an activator, one static, a drop turner and a swinger that's fassssst...you want to go activator, static, dropper, swinger and catch the swinger on it's first pass and not wait around for it to come back. You're early in the order and think you can double the swinger, but it's not a sure thing by any means. You obviously want to burn down the stage, but if you decide to go without a reload you don't have any makeup shots and if the swinger proves too fast you're doing a static reload for the makeup shot. Or something along those lines...I just came up with that quickly.

If a reload doesn't slow you down at all...not a bit, then it's a no-brainer to add it somewhere earlier in the stage. If however, it does slow you down, even a little, and you're trying to win the stage, is it worth the risk?

It's the last stage of the Nationals, you're on the last squad and they have new automatic scoring system that updates with current standings every minute. Chris T. (just picked him since he's the current Open champion and posted here but it's not necessarily an Open thing) just went ahead of you, shot an awesome stage (doubled the swinger and never reloaded) and he had you by a couple of points coming into this stage. You need to win the stage to win the match. It comes down to the stage above and you need every single last point and a smokin' fast time to edge ahead of him. What does everybody do and what are they basing that decision on?

Certainly it's not likely most of us will wind up in that spot, but I think it's an interesting question just the same. R,

I don't reload.

I'm in position to win the biggest match of the year, so things are going pretty well. I'm seeing what I need to, and in order to win the match I can't give a tenth of a second. If I don't load, I win.

For me personally there is no question. Winners choose to win. And winning, in general, is not without risk. So I go for it in this scenario knowing that the outcome will be what I choose for it to be.

That said I understand the circumstance - you and I have shot enough together (albeit years ago). I understand the dilema, and the question. And have encountered it before.

Now, I shoot production. So I just load when I move and hope I hit it

J

[G-ManBart]

No, I'd have to say it's pretty black or white on the finite level. The shades of grey come about when we make judgements and decisions based upon those things like comfort, risk tolerance etc that you mention....

Go back and re-read my post - I'm not at all talking about making any decisions on approaching a stage. You're talking about comparing feedback from different GMs that seems to be at odds with one another (feedback offered based on the original question you posted). I'm telling you why it seems to be at odds... but isn't.

Of course, if you want to continue to argue with yourself about it, feel free...

I'll remind you that the original question was: "The basic question is this: Does adding a reload to movement cost you time compared to moving without a reload?", not "What's the absolute fastest way to move, with or without a reload?" That's what everyone (but, seemingly, you) have been talking about....

but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the absolute fastest method period, nothing else.

At the level you're at in the game, that should be immediately apparent and obvious without asking the question.

but it's another piece of data to enter into the equation when you're looking at a stage. R,

If you're trying to add that into some notion of how to approach a stage, you are seriously frittering away time and brain power on something that doesn't matter. The absolute fastest way to do it is with no reload, no extra shots, no hesitations (due to being careful to avoid extra shots) and no malfunctions. Period....

Like I said before... when that piece of information actually matters for you (that is, when you're on the Super Squad, one stage left to shoot, and you need to swing for the fences to win the match or not), you'll know it... until then...

(edit to fix a typo)

Actually, my point from the comparing the different GM's wasn't that I didn't understand what they were saying or was confused as to why they were saying it....it actually seemed to come up naturally as part of the discussion when people were bringing up those Super Squad folks who differ in their opinion. Some have said, emphatically, that it costs time, others have said it doesn't have to....to have that level of shooter making a blanket statement is either researched pretty carefully or is really just a notion without support....either way, pro or con.

The eventual follow-on to this would be to figure out why one or the other was true....either way. If we're seeing those same folks split (say evenly just for simplicity) what is it about the folks that say it doesn't cost them time that's different from the folks that say it does? Is it possible that the folks that say they don't lose any time chose to leave a position the same speed regardless of whether they're doing a reload? Do they run a little harder when they have to do a reload at the cost of a bit of control? Heck, I don't know, but it would be interesting to hear. If they're not losing anything how are they, individually, getting to that result? For the folks that say it does cost them time, why is that? Hey, if based on that series of questions I can find where I can gain say half a second per moving reload by working on something(s) specific I'm going to do it....that's like free money!

If you break it down to the smallest element, asking whether a reload costs you time is exactly about what's the faster of the two methods...with or without. If it does cost you time then the fastest way is without a reload (with all other things being equal). If it doesn't cost you time the fastest way is "either"...assuming the technique is all correct.

I'm not suggesting that the answer to this, if there is a definitive one, is all that significant in the grand scheme of things and I would figure it to be a very small part of stage planning, but I doubt there's anybody that hasn't walked a stage and wondered for a second "should I skip the reload, is it worth it" or something along those lines. Again, it's not a huge deal, but it does come up and it's a reasonable question. I'm looking at movement, in general, as a big part of my focus to continue getting better and this just popped up in another discussion so it seemed reasonable to discuss it....just interesting, one more thing to throw in the bag of tricks even if it's rarely or ever needed.

I'd absolutely disagree that it only matters for the Super Squad shooter trying to swing for the fences and win a match. I haven't won a stage at a big match, but I've been in the top 2 to 10 on stages here and there, and at that level (and you know this better than I do, I'm sure) it often doesn't take much to go from 5th to 3rd on a stage. Heck one or two points or a couple of tenths is often all it takes. I'm not only looking for that time in something as narrow as a moving reload, but it doesn't hurt to examine it even if it's not there right? It's easy to listen to some Super Squad big name say something, but that doesn't mean you really know it....breaking it down to the smallest level, work back up and see what shakes out at the end is all I'm curious about.

Further, I'm not expecting anyone to give me an answer, but I'll gladly consider the experience other folks have so I'm better able to examine what I'm seeing in my own testing and comparison....hey, if someone else makes a comment that winds up making the light bulb go off for me quicker, I'm all for it and if somebody else benefits from the question, even if that means just ignoring it and working on something else, everybody wins right?

[TWHaz]

No times just observations.

Moving with a reload will always be slower as stated above.

GM shooters will usually have the reload finished within the first step. The less reload skill a shooter has results in more steps before finishing the reload, thus slower for reasons already stated.

MDA

Some guy bucking the "way to do it"

[mcoliver]

Getting the reload over quickly when leaving is just one solution. From where I shoot, you normally don't get to shoot any sooner than when you're already at "that spot." Hence, we normally need the time to setup. So why not do the reload during the slowing down process? Relatively easier done rather than rushing it.

Both, however, are skill sets that need to be practiced until you get max efficiency. Because for each of us, getting from point A to B at the quickest possible time is one goal regardless of what we do in between, isn't it?

{just random ramblings from someone who burned out long ago but now trying to get back in the game.}

[olp73]

Let me preface this by saying I am not an explosive shooter in the movement department. Shooting Open (that's all I shoot now) there is no perceptible difference in time between a big stick and a reload if I have 3-4 steps between positions. I am slightly slower if there is only a step or two but it isn't really the physical act of reloading that gobbles up the extra couple of tenths. What happens is the reload redirects my attention away from other aspects of the shooting, like setting up and shooting as soon as possible as I arrive at the next position. Even when there isn't any difference in "time" the hits might suffer slightly. I really noticed this when I was shooting L10 with a single stack.

+1

[Justsomeguy]

I don't have hard data (mebbe I should), but can tell you this:

My reload with movement (and I do a lot of them in Production), from release with the weak hand to insertion, is slower than a static reload because I'll miss with the mag at standard speed if my various body parts are pumping and impacting the ground with each step.

My movement with a reload, from point A to point B, is slower than moving without it, probably for reasons similar to the above.

But my overall time to reload with movement from A to B is faster than a static reload followed by movement.

I see what you are saying... but the last line: "But my overall time to reload with movement from A to B is faster than a static reload followed by movement." is the whole point isn't it?

[Jake Di Vita]

No one is saying do a static load and then move. Just get the load done within the first step of movement.

[davecutts]

Some guy bucking the "way to do it"

For a right handed shooter moving to the left that's one way to keep shooting for the rest of the match, plus you have to give him a break for god's sake he's french.

[Flyin40]

Some guy bucking the "way to do it"

For a right handed shooter moving to the left that's one way to keep shooting for the rest of the match, plus you have to give him a break for god's sake he's french.

I wouldn't call it bucking the way to do it, just being safe. I'm sure he has put it on a timer to see which is faster while going left for a right handed shooter. Turning his whole body and slowing him down to get the reload right when he starts moving or reload coming into next position. As smooth as the reload and entering the position was it looks like he has practiced that technique more than a few times.

Regardless that guy is smooth

Flyin

[mcoliver]

The same french technique

[bkeeler]

I had a practice session this weekend and I did a little test at the end of the session the video is of me doing the last two strings for the day in my practice session. With a reload my time was 8.89 seconds A= 10 C=2, With out the reload my time was 8.59 seconds A=10 C=2. So in this scenario the reload cost me .30 seconds or did it? I think that it did cost me some time considering the points where exactly the same on both runs. I felt that I could not start leaving as early when I had to do the reload vs without the reload. Keep in mind this was only two runs if I had done more it may have come out a little different. With a reload there is always the disaster factor if you miss the reload.

Just my .02 worth from a high B class shooter YMMV.

BK

[G-ManBart]

I had a practice session this weekend and I did a little test at the end of the session the video is of me doing the last two strings for the day in my practice session. With a reload my time was 8.89 seconds A= 10 C=2, With out the reload my time was 8.59 seconds A=10 C=2. So in this scenario the reload cost me .30 seconds or did it? I think that it did cost me some time considering the points where exactly the same on both runs. I felt that I could not start leaving as early when I had to do the reload vs without the reload. Keep in mind this was only two runs if I had done more it may have come out a little different. With a reload there is always the disaster factor if you miss the reload.

Just my .02 worth from a high B class shooter YMMV.

BK

The reload well could have been the extra three tenths, but to be really sure you'd have to run a drill like that a bunch of times both ways and get an average since one or two slight differences in box entries/exits could cause just as much difference as a reload does. Still, it's pretty darned close to what a lot of folks have said all along...a couple of tenths per reload. R,

[bkeeler]

I had a practice session this weekend and I did a little test at the end of the session the video is of me doing the last two strings for the day in my practice session. With a reload my time was 8.89 seconds A= 10 C=2, With out the reload my time was 8.59 seconds A=10 C=2. So in this scenario the reload cost me .30 seconds or did it? I think that it did cost me some time considering the points where exactly the same on both runs. I felt that I could not start leaving as early when I had to do the reload vs without the reload. Keep in mind this was only two runs if I had done more it may have come out a little different. With a reload there is always the disaster factor if you miss the reload.

Just my .02 worth from a high B class shooter YMMV.

BK

The reload well could have been the extra three tenths, but to be really sure you'd have to run a drill like that a bunch of times both ways and get an average since one or two slight differences in box entries/exits could cause just as much difference as a reload does. Still, it's pretty darned close to what a lot of folks have said all along...a couple of tenths per reload. R,

I also believe that each run has to be perfect as far as movement and no bobbles with the reloads or entering/exiting positions.

I agree.

BK

Edited August 18, 2009 by bkeeler