Unsportsman like conduct?

[RolandF]

A friend was telling me yesterday that he called a score on a target that was challenged. He touched the target, cardboard std, and the competetor said since he (friend) touched the target had to give him his call. My friend said he wasn't exactly sure of the rule, so he gave the competitor his improved score. (The call in question was a bravo/mike, competitor called it a bravo/bravo. While waiting for an overlay, he grabed the target. We talked to our local range master regarding this a day later, and found the friend was in error, that he, being the ro is allowed to touch the target.) But here is where my question comes in. The competitor came back later to my friend and said he knew it was a bravo/mike and just want to challenge it, and since he touched the target he got his way.

The thing is, I have no problem with a competitor challenging a call, but when he returns and says the above, keeping in mind it was a level 3 match (just a local monthly match), and wheather it was even for a gaming advantage(I'm ok with that), I say he should've DQ'd him for unsportsmanlike conduct. The guy should've kept his reasons/rational to himself.

Would that be correct?

[Ed K]

9.1.2 Touching Targets – While scoring is in progress competitors or their

delegate must not touch, gauge or otherwise interfere with any target

without the authorization of the Range Officer. Should a Range Officer

deem that a competitor or their delegate has influenced or affected the

scoring process due to such interference, the Range Officer may:

9.1.2.1 Score the affected target as a missed target; or

9.1.2.2 Impose penalties for any affected no-shoots.

As far as the unsportsmanlike conduct, Rule 10.6, the competitor knowingly cheated. But you'd have to do something pretty overt to get this called.

If I were the MD/RM of a local "league match", and found out about a competitor trying to take advantage of scoring mikes........ Well as George Jones says, "We would have a counseling session".

If you have to cheat at this game in order to win, why are you even playing?

[RolandF]

9.1.2 Touching Targets – While scoring is in progress competitors or their

delegate must not touch, gauge or otherwise interfere with any target

without the authorization of the Range Officer. Should a Range Officer

deem that a competitor or their delegate has influenced or affected the

scoring process due to such interference, the Range Officer may:

9.1.2.1 Score the affected target as a missed target; or

9.1.2.2 Impose penalties for any affected no-shoots.

As far as the unsportsmanlike conduct, Rule 10.6, the competitor knowingly cheated. But you'd have to do something pretty overt to get this called.

If I were the MD/RM of a local "league match", and found out about a competitor trying to take advantage of scoring mikes........ Well as George Jones says, "We would have a counseling session".

If you have to cheat at this game in order to win, why are you even playing?

Thanks for the reply Ed. It wasn't so much as to the touching of the targets, thanks for the clairification though. I see by the rule 10.6 then, my call would be more of a gray area then. I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement, that I highlighted.

[AlamoShooter]

That rule is not in the USPSA book , But it makes page one in my book . it would be Rule JF (A) =Disappointing Behavior. Rule -JF (A- 1.3a ) =Disappointing behavior in friends. as compared to rule JF -(A- 1.3b) Disappointing behavior in acquaintances.

Use in abbreviation as Dude I've read the rule book. If I have have to use that statement. Rule JF A-1.3a or A-1.3b will apply.

[JThompson]

A friend was telling me yesterday that he called a score on a target that was challenged. He touched the target, cardboard std, and the competetor said since he (friend) touched the target had to give him his call. My friend said he wasn't exactly sure of the rule, so he gave the competitor his improved score. (The call in question was a bravo/mike, competitor called it a bravo/bravo. While waiting for an overlay, he grabed the target. We talked to our local range master regarding this a day later, and found the friend was in error, that he, being the ro is allowed to touch the target.) But here is where my question comes in. The competitor came back later to my friend and said he knew it was a bravo/mike and just want to challenge it, and since he touched the target he got his way.

The thing is, I have no problem with a competitor challenging a call, but when he returns and says the above, keeping in mind it was a level 3 match (just a local monthly match), and wheather it was even for a gaming advantage(I'm ok with that), I say he should've DQ'd him for unsportsmanlike conduct. The guy should've kept his reasons/rational to himself.

Would that be correct?

Have all concerned taken the level I RO class? If not, do so. Also, learn the lesson... be fair, be consistent, be doggone sure of the call. All shooters and RO should have a little blue book in their bag.

JT

PS The time to speak with the range master is at the time of the incident. If he's not there. see little blue book.

[RolandF]

Have all concerned taken the level I RO class?

JT

My friend took the nroi (spelling?) class. I believe he is a level I cert. ro. Our Range master is also a cro, and he was familar with the touching the target ruling. But he was unsure about the unsportsmanlike conduct at the time I asked, which was well after the match.

[EricBudd]

On the flip side, there are local shooters here who will ALWAYS ask 'Isn't that a double?' when they have a mike on the assumption that it never hurts to ask. So, as an RO you look again, call the mike and move on. No harm, no foul. In fact, it is almost a inside joke with those shooters.

I guess, cheating is one thing, but being a good natured PITA is another.

Eric

[boz1911]

On the flip side, there are local shooters here who will ALWAYS ask 'Isn't that a double?' when they have a mike on the assumption that it never hurts to ask. So, as an RO you look again, call the mike and move on. No harm, no foul. In fact, it is almost a inside joke with those shooters.

I guess, cheating is one thing, but being a good natured PITA is another.

Eric

If I know it's a target that I missed a shot, I try to save the RO's time and let him know it's a perfect single. Learned that from 45DV8.

[Steve J]

That rule is not in the USPSA book , But it makes page one in my book . it would be Rule JF (A) =Disappointing Behavior. Rule -JF (A- 1.3a ) =Disappointing behavior in friends. as compared to rule JF -(A- 1.3b) Disappointing behavior in acquaintances.

Use in abbreviation as Dude I've read the rule book. If I have have to use that statement. Rule JF A-1.3a or A-1.3b will apply.

[steve smiles knowingly]

Many like to call it "gaming the rules" which in my book is a thinly veiled cover for cheating, and if it's not outright cheating then it's being a poor sportsman.

[Pat Miles]

As far as being familiar with the rules of the game you don't have to take an NROI class but you should if one is made available. Take some time and read through the rule book. If you are going to RO stages with your club you should have a decent knowledge of the rules. There is another advantage to knowing the rules and that comes into play when you are the shooter. What can I do? What can't I do? It's a shame that your friends (RO and CRO) do not know the rules OR AT LEAST do not know enough to look in the book when they are unsure of a rule. The rule book is a reference manual. The target could have been pulled, signed and given to the RO for determination. Yes, every shooter has the right to contest a decision. If he contests every one he risks being labeled an ass. His decision. Was it unsportsmanlike conduct? Probably not in my book. The RO's blew the call by not knowing the rules and what course of action to take. If the call was made as bravo/mike and the shooter started ranting and raving then he should have been warned to tread lightly. If he continued then he should have been sent home using the unsportsmanlike rule. The RO's have to have control of the game.

CYa,

Pat

[RolandF]

As far as being familiar with the rules of the game you don't have to take an NROI class but you should if one is made available. Take some time and read through the rule book. If you are going to RO stages with your club you should have a decent knowledge of the rules. There is another advantage to knowing the rules and that comes into play when you are the shooter. What can I do? What can't I do? It's a shame that your friends (RO and CRO) do not know the rules OR AT LEAST do not know enough to look in the book when they are unsure of a rule. The rule book is a reference manual. The target could have been pulled, signed and given to the RO for determination. Yes, every shooter has the right to contest a decision. If he contests every one he risks being labeled an ass. His decision. Was it unsportsmanlike conduct? Probably not in my book. The RO's blew the call by not knowing the rules and what course of action to take. If the call was made as bravo/mike and the shooter started ranting and raving then he should have been warned to tread lightly. If he continued then he should have been sent home using the unsportsmanlike rule. The RO's have to have control of the game.

CYa,

Pat

Hey Pat. The unsportsman like conduct isn't with the questioning of the score. I agree with you that every competitor has that right. My contention is when that competitor returned and told the RO (my freind, who didn't have the rule book with him-he will now though ) that he knew it was as called and just asked for a challenge to see if he could get a better score. See what I mean?

Everyone thanks for the replys, this is a cool forum. Rol.

[38supPat]

Should have told him, "That's OK we threw a procedural on your scorecard after you left." Then stand back and watch him freak out....you gotta have some fun with a dork like that!

[RolandF]

Should have told him, "Thay's OK we threw a procedural on your scorecard after you left." Then stand back and watch him freak out....you gotta have some fun with a dork like that!

[Chris iliff]

Pat's spot on. Have some fun with a dork like that. Those kinda jokes or whatever that guy calls what he did really slows the process up for everyone. It's a game. A very fun game for me. But, at the same time what we do is serious. That guy just doesn't get it.

[Pat Miles]

Roland,

Just cause the fellow asks for a decision to go his way and if it does doesn't constitute an unsportsmanlike DQ. Not even if he confesses later. Not trying to in any way badmouth you or your friends but if one of you had made the right call the situation would have been over. This dork will probably try something else in another match, once he knows that he is going to have to live within the rules he'll either straighten out or quit coming to the matches.If something sounds odd take a few minutes and break out the book. Again, you have to know the rules both as an RO and a shooter.

CYa,

Pat

I do like Pat's idea of screwing with the guy with a ficticious procedural. Mind games forever!

[VegasOPM]

Give the dork his Bravo and then Mock the guy mercilessly!

[mike_pinto]

That rule is not in the USPSA book , But it makes page one in my book . it would be Rule JF (A) =Disappointing Behavior. Rule -JF (A- 1.3a ) =Disappointing behavior in friends. as compared to rule JF -(A- 1.3b) Disappointing behavior in acquaintances.

Use in abbreviation as Dude I've read the rule book. If I have have to use that statement. Rule JF A-1.3a or A-1.3b will apply.

I am dying over here Jamie!!

[Skizeks]

On the flip side, there are local shooters here who will ALWAYS ask 'Isn't that a double?' when they have a mike on the assumption that it never hurts to ask. So, as an RO you look again, call the mike and move on. No harm, no foul. In fact, it is almost a inside joke with those shooters.

I guess, cheating is one thing, but being a good natured PITA is another.

Eric

If I know it's a target that I missed a shot, I try to save the RO's time and let him know it's a perfect single. Learned that from 45DV8.

Perfect single? Those ain't the problem, It's the perfect double that some people don't know how to score!! Alfa-Mike

[ima45dv8]

On the flip side, there are local shooters here who will ALWAYS ask 'Isn't that a double?' when they have a mike on the assumption that it never hurts to ask. So, as an RO you look again, call the mike and move on. No harm, no foul. In fact, it is almost a inside joke with those shooters.

I guess, cheating is one thing, but being a good natured PITA is another.

Eric

If I know it's a target that I missed a shot, I try to save the RO's time and let him know it's a perfect single. Learned that from 45DV8.

Perfect single? Those ain't the problem, It's the perfect double that some people don't know how to score!! Alfa-Mike

"Perfect Single" is my pet term for, "It's a Mike -- don't bother looking for it."

[G-ManBart]

"Perfect Single" is my pet term for, "It's a Mike -- don't bother looking for it."

Yep, if I felt funny about a shot I'll usually go straight to that target first and confirm what I called....if it's not there I'll check the edges all the way around and if I don't see anything I'll just wait until the RO gets to it and tell them "it's not there".

If I called a good shot I'll ask them to look at the hit carefully and if it's funky looking, ask for an overlay, but that's it.

[steel1212]

"Perfect Single" is my pet term for, "It's a Mike -- don't bother looking for it."

Yep, if I felt funny about a shot I'll usually go straight to that target first and confirm what I called....if it's not there I'll check the edges all the way around and if I don't see anything I'll just wait until the RO gets to it and tell them "it's not there".

If I called a good shot I'll ask them to look at the hit carefully and if it's funky looking, ask for an overlay, but that's it.

Pretty much what I do. If its not there its not there and I'm not going to call its a double every time just in case. The ROs have enough to do with out me being a pain in the back side.

[Sestock]

There is nothing wrong with asking the question about the double. If the shooter or RO weren't sure of the hit then the Overlay will either confirm or dispute the call.

And thank god that we have firm rules to follow and there are not arbitary after action calls made in USPSA.

To the OP, please take an RO class next time one is offered.

[bofe954]

Just out of curiousity, why would the RO not have just scored the target a miss anyway?

I don't see anywhere in the rule book where it says "if someone else touches your target the RO scores it the way you tell him/her to".

Looking at 9.1.2 it would seem like the RO has to determine if the delegate has interfered and then score the target. To me interference in the case of target with one hole in it could only be a few things, poking a new hole or tearing the old one bigger, which would be easy to see, or premature pasting, which would be a reshoot.

If someone was poking holes in a target or making other holes bigger I would think that they would be DQ'd.

I am sure this is a case of "club match, who cares, just give the guy a B so we can move on..." but looking at the rule book it doesn't make sense to me.

[High Lord Gomer]

Perfect single? Those ain't the problem, It's the perfect double that some people don't know how to score!! Alfa-Mike

I've heard this several times from Stan Johnson:

If you're good enough to put them both in the same hole, you should be good enough to space them out a 1/2 inch so that I can score them!

[XD Niner]

While I wouldn't call this instance one of unsportsmanlike conduct it speaks volumes of the shooter's integrity. He severely damaged his personal reputation for 14 pretty meaningless points. I'll bet the perception of his character far outlasts the memory of the points unjustly obtained.