CHA-LEE Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I have heard it many times before at a match where someone may be thinking about or tackling a stage in a unique way or asks questions about specifics of a stage description then almost always someone will say "He’s gaming the stage" or something to that effect. To me this is a totally absurd comment as we are all essentially playing a practical shooting "Game" so in essence we are all "Gaming the stage" when we look at the stage and formulate a plan of attack. I am trying to understand this mind set some people have that certain shooters are "Gamers" or "Game stages". Isn't it in all of our best interest to think creatively for solving stage challenges? If someone wants to take an unconventional approach to tackling a stage, really, what is the harm in that? If they find a better/faster way to do it then I say good for them. I would really like to hear others thoughts on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I have heard it many times before at a match where someone may be thinking about or tackling a stage in a unique way or asks questions about specifics of a stage description then almost always someone will say "He’s gaming the stage" or something to that effect. To me this is a totally absurd comment as we are all essentially playing a practical shooting "Game" so in essence we are all "Gaming the stage" when we look at the stage and formulate a plan of attack. I am trying to understand this mind set some people have that certain shooters are "Gamers" or "Game stages". Isn't it in all of our best interest to think creatively for solving stage challenges? If someone wants to take an unconventional approach to tackling a stage, really, what is the harm in that? If they find a better/faster way to do it then I say good for them. I would really like to hear others thoughts on this subject. You can over game a stage and make it harder than it really is BUT I play the GAME so therefore I GAME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Isomeone will say "He’s gaming the stage" Translation: DAMN, wish I thought of that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) I thought gaming was part of the point Edited March 19, 2009 by Coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I thought gaming was part of the point I guess my idea of gaming is different. At a local match a GM showed up. He decided I had put some barrels in the wrong place when I set up the stage, so he moved them for me. (The MD saw it and called him out.) The next stage blew his mind. He spent about 10 minutes during walk through trying to figure it out, and then "forgot" to turn in his score card so he could shoot it last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I didn't game enough last weekend. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 THe phrase or term "gaming" can be used to varying degrees. IF you are trying to avoind the intent of the stage, or you are just finding minor gaps in the stage breifs, either way it's gaming. But as a guy who helps put on a match monthly now, I encourage gaming. How else do you learn to write good stage briefs unless you put them out there to be gamed? It's the other part fo the game, the non-shooting part that makes this game so cool. i have been dreaming up two stages for the better part of three weeks. this weekend I will get gamed somewhat. Then the next time I will try and make the breif either more explicit, or I will design the stage in such a way as to limit or ecourage gaming. I guess I am trying to say I LIKE GAMING! It's fun for goodness sakes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Those who complain of gaming dont shoot enough or try to think beyond the norms of the stage. As a match director and stage designer I game every stage from every angle I can think of as I build the stage and then I still miss some of the odd ways people will look at shooting the stage. Some do it well and others over complicate the stage with their game. I dont get worked up about it from either view. When I go and shoot other matches where I am just the competitor, I try to find solutions that benefit me and my style of shooting. If no 1 else thinks of it then I shoot the stage different from everyone else and then we find out if it worked to my advantage or not. Either way we all have to shoot all of the targets and satisfy the course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I thought gaming was part of the point I guess my idea of gaming is different. At a local match a GM showed up. He decided I had put some barrels in the wrong place when I set up the stage, so he moved them for me. (The MD saw it and called him out.) The next stage blew his mind. He spent about 10 minutes during walk through trying to figure it out, and then "forgot" to turn in his score card so he could shoot it last. I would not refer to the above description as gaming. If I were you I would take some pride in confusing a Gm to the point that he wants to go last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Solving a puzzle freestyle is gaming???? I admire course designs that offer multiple solutions. Those are the stages with a continuous conga line right up to the last second. I also hate it when the guy shooting in front of you solved the puzzle better than you're about to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 (edited) I guess my idea of gaming is different. At a local match a GM showed up. He decided I had put some barrels in the wrong place when I set up the stage, so he moved them for me. (The MD saw it and called him out.) The next stage blew his mind. He spent about 10 minutes during walk through trying to figure it out, and then "forgot" to turn in his score card so he could shoot it last. In my mind "gaming" is seeing a loop hole in the course description as worded, and/or taking advantage of poor course design. Maybe taking a risky shot that seems kind of crazy to most, to save big time, but you have practiced that particular skill set and decide to try it anyway. Not necessarily a bad thing, and forces course designers to be more careful and thoughtful in the future, which makes for better stages. Altering the course of fire is cheating, not gaming. That could result in a DQ. "Forgetting" to turn in a scorecard..... again, not gaming, thats just very poor sportsmanship if done intentionally. GM, or not that kind of stuff is cheating, not gaming. Edited March 20, 2009 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 You can win a stage by being smarter or trickier than everybody else just like you can win a fight by being smarter or trickier than everybody else. Nobody said it was only a test of shooting skill. Unless specifically prohibited, it's everybody else's fault for not thinking of whatever "gaming" idea you came up with. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 We shot a stage last weekend that by layout "required" engaging 6 poppers UNDER a 3' barricade. A few of the guys found out you could lean "hard" (ie push) against one of the screens and get to two of the poppers. BOTH ended up making hard-cover hits trying to "game" the stage, and it screwed them... Lesson learned by a novice (me)... Sometimes you just gotta shoot it the way it was designed to be shot... and shoot it well! JW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 I totally agree that there is total difference between Cheating and Gaming. If you are modifying the COF then you should be DQed for cheating. I actually think that is a rule in USPSA. The same goes for unsportsmanlike like conduct. If you are throwing a fit like a little brat about something trivial or trying to sneak out of a shooting order then the appropriate penalties should apply. Gaming to me is the creative breakdown of a stage that some people may not have thought of or are not capable of doing. Here is a good example where I was accused of "Gaming" a stage. There was a stage with a bunch of ports, a door and a port window you had to open. The course description stated that you had to wear a bag with items in it which you had throw though the ports/door before you could engage the targets. I asked for clarification on if I could throw the items though all of the ports/door then go back and engage the targets. I was told that I had to engage the ports in a specific order and had to throw an item through a single port and then engage the targets through that port only before moving to the next port. Even though this was not written down on the stage description I figured that I didn't want to cause any trouble and shoot the stage in the target engagement order that was directed by the RO. Since I had to throw an item through each port before engaging the targets I decided to grab a handful of items with my weak hand and then shoot all of the targets strong hand only. This allowed me to throw the item through the port and engage the targets quickly after that by not using a two handed grip on the pistol. I ended up completing the stage 10 seconds faster than the next fastest competitor simply because they would dig in the bag for an item, throw it through the port, then rebuild their grip and fire. Repeating this for every port really adds up the time. Well needless to say the "Gamer" comments were rumbling in the peanut gallery after my stage run and I just told them flat out that they have the option of shooting the stage strong hand only the same way as me. I was the second shooter on the squad to shoot the stage so everyone but one shooter had the chance to see how I did it. But they all chose to do it the other way and take a huge hit in time. The only thing I can think of is that they felt like they didn't have the confidence in their strong hand only shooting to shoot the stage the way I did it. Even with that, how does their lack of skill or confidence in their skills make me a "Gamer"? I am not confrontational or super competitive when I shoot and don't take it all serious like some other shooters, but it still gets under my skin when people pull out the "Gamer" comments when its really just an insecurity of theirs about the stage or their own skills. I really try to roll with the flow when I compete at matches. In the above stage example I could have told the RO to stick it when he mandated an engagement order of the targets simply because there was no mention of it on the stage description and another squad had already shot the stage in who knows what target engagement order. But to me, its not worth the hassle to piss people off for something as trivial as a single stage at a club match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 ....I also hate it when the guy shooting in front of you solved the puzzle better than you're about to. I really hate when the guy BEHIND me solves it better dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 CHA-LEE, That's not cheating, that's GAMING! It is a GAME! BE PROUD of your gaming chops! The others can stick it if they so wish to limit themselves to the herd mentality. The idea is to get you to think outside the box. My Dad was a gamer in the old days. He'd get razzed about it and usually answer with the thumb-up raspberry sound. ( I think that's slang for "stick it!" ) My name is Jim, I'm a D shooter, and I am a GAMER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Seems like the same guys who complain the most about gaming are the ones who also complain about "leveling the playing field". Come to think of it, these are also the same guys who always finish at the bottom of the results......See a connection here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splashdown Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I need to start gaming the stages again. I've been busy working as squad leader and RO for a couple years and miss out on my own walk-through time. Last week I shot a stage as it was intended, with targets through two different ports. Some shooters discovered that you could engage one group of targets from the end of a hallway that was still within the shooting area. WSB didn't say you had to use the ports. Dang. Wish I'd have thought of that. One guy shaved 2-3 seconds off my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pittbug Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I think I would take it as a compliment because it means that I had thought of doing something better/faster than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I recently became Match Director of our club. I like to design stages, so over half our stages are my designs. The first couple of matches I tried to make the stage designs "gamer proof". Well the gamers beat me and figured out holes everywhere. I even figured out a couple of shortcuts. That is when it occured to me that it was more fun when there were different options to complete the stage. Since then, the stages have been more freestyle and more fun (if I do say so myself). I try to give shooters options that allow them to play to their strengths. Some guys shoot fast, other move well, some are more accuracy focused. I've even been playing with stages where taking a procedural will pay off- but only if executed well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Hey, I say let them "Game". I think I like it better when I'm a couple down in the order so I might have a chance to use the same thing but if they can figure out how to do it faster then so be it. In my opinion that is all a part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 It is a game after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 If you'r not "Gaming" than your just target shooting. Coming up with a unique or un-thought of "Better way" is half the fun for me. Sometimes a stage designer will get his feathers ruffled and say "Well thats not how I intended it". OK so be it, but either the stage needs to be designed better or stipulations spelled out before hand. "gaming" is not to me a dirty word as some would make it out to be. Of course having said that, you must stay in the boundries of the rules of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I game it as much as I can each and every time. SOME stage designers have gotten so into gamer prevention that you end up with stages everyone shoots the same way and that takes away from the experience IMO. You end up with 'starting with heels on ___' or 'starting with hands touching_____' and only one sensible way to proceed through the course. The most challenging stages to me and the ones I see most other people work the hardest to plan are the ones that have 'starting in shooting area, shoot targets as they become visible'. You'll see a couple solid plans come out through the day, some really bad plans, and a lot of shooters just watching the best shooter on the squad and doing what they do because they have no idea how or no confidence in planning it to best suit their shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 A few of the guys found out you could lean "hard" (ie push) against one of the screens and get to two of the poppers. That is modifying the course of fire and it is cheating, not gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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