Surrender draw to support hand only

[G-ManBart]

I noticed something recently and wondered how much other folks have drilled down into this. Suppose you're shooting a classifier that has a string with a surrender start and you must engage the targets support hand only. Are you looking at the gun after assuming the position and waiting for the start or are you looking at the targets?

I've seen folks grab the magwell and bottom of the grip with their strong hand opening up a lot of the grip for the support hand which makes it easier to get a solid grip, but that never worked well for me. I'd either grab too much grip or not enough...but I was looking at the targets and my hand wants to grab the gun as it normally does...a full grip. When I tried looking at the grip I found that I easily grab the magwell and just enough grip every time. This seems to speed up a really solid support hand only grip, but at this point (not having timed it on the range) I don't know if I'm giving up time in getting on the first target.

With the Open gun it seems easier to find the dot this way as well...my hand gets the good grip, I'm looking at the back of the gun and the scope/dot just comes into view as I'm transitioning my eyes to the first target. So, it seems like a good idea, but I won't be convinced until I run it on the clock.

Also it seems that even if I give up a tiny bit of time getting on the first target I've avoided the disaster of getting a terrible grip which is compounded being support hand only at that point.

So, what is everybody else doing and what have you found if you've compared the two on the clock? R,

[el pres]

I look at the first target and grab the gun by the magwell handing it to my weak hand.

I dont seem to have any problem forgetting to grip only the magwell ??

[G-ManBart]

I look at the first target and grab the gun by the magwell handing it to my weak hand.

I dont seem to have any problem forgetting to grip only the magwell ??

Hmmm...maybe I'm just a spaz?

Edited January 22, 2009 by G-ManBart

[DonT]

In my very short two years of shooting this sport, I have not run across this yet so I'm not the voice of experience. But, if I were going to practice this I would do dryfire draw drills looking at the target as always and try grabbing the magwell if thats what you want to do. Repetative muscle memory shouldn't take long to pick it up. Personally, I'm not sure I would want to grab the magwell...but that's just me.

[VegasOPM]

That is funny, I was practicing that yesterday. I never look at the gun on the draw- but I do grab the gun so that my middle finger catches the end of the grip (or the magwell on my Limited gun) so that my support hand gets a solid grip with no interference. I bend my ring finger and little finger so that I can press them against the mag base on my Production gun to get the right grip position, and just bend my little finger on my Limited gun (since it has the 140mm mag). That trick wouldn't work so well on a 170mm though.

I started working hard on this after I launched a fully loaded GLOCK 5 yds downrange during a practice session.

[boz1911]

I definately look at the target. Two things that have helped my left hand draw. One I have found that using a 170 mag actually helps my strong hand get a solid grip on the magwell and the other is leaving a little gap on th e weak hand between the index and middle finger. This gap helps to not engage the mag release and align my weakhand grip. I never hunt the dot on this type of draw anymore.

[rvb]

I've been working on these lately and even just commented on it in my range diary (rvb's diary).

I don't grab the mag well, I just draw normally up to the point the WH would normally be getting to the gun and then the RH makes room at the beavertail for the web of the WH to come in. At this point the gun is held by the SH fingers even though the thumb and back of the palm is off the gun. Hard to discribe w/o pictures. As the WH gets control the SH is removed. Seems very solid to me.

I look at the target as I draw and start to press out as I would on any draw. As the WH comes to the gun, I have found that LOOKING at the transfer makes the process must faster and much more consistant. I think of this as being much like a reload and looking the mag into the well. Sure you can do it w/ 'feel' but it's not going to be as fast or consistant dispite how it 'feels.'

-rvb

[bkeeler]

I look at the first target and grab the gun by the magwell handing it to my weak hand.

I dont seem to have any problem forgetting to grip only the magwell ??

+1

BK

[Bear23]

I grab the gun as i normally would and then transfer to my weak hand. With my open gun, i push the gun out with the weak hand so i can see the dot in the c-more and get it on the target spot i'm lookin at. With my limited gun, i just transfer and do less of a push out.

I'm always looking at the target and where i want that first shot to go.

[badchad]

I look at the target and draw the gun as I normally would. I started transferring the gun from my strong to support hand using the washing or brushing your hands technique as I learned in Brian’s book. However, I must confess that over thousands of practice transfers in dryfire it has evolved to where I am now literally throwing the guy from hand to hand. I didn't even know I was doing it for a long time. It still feels every bit as solid though.

[BritinUSA]

I look at the gun. If I have an Aimpoint or Doctor as my sight I grab the slide, fingers on the left, palm on the right, so at no time in the draw does my hand touch the grip.

NB: If the start signal is not audible (turning targets) then you need to look at the targets and not the gun otherwise you could be standing there like a lemon waiting for a signal that's not coming (ask me how I know )

Edited January 22, 2009 by BritinUSA

[SA Friday]

started out grabbing the magwell, then switched to drawing normal, rolling the thumb over to the right side and then transfering to weak (left) hand. better grip and was faster. I look at the target until I get a sight picture and transfer back to the front sight.

[caspian guy]

I look at the gun. Grab the gun by the Cmore with my strong hand and bring it up to the normal index point in front of my chest. Then acquire a grip with the week hand. Once I have the gun with my weak hand my eyes go to the first target as I am pressing the gun out.

Peter Adams

FY-39604

[kevin c]

I look at the target (just like the draw, practicing has gotten me to the point where I don't need to look for the gun).

I take a "shallow" grip, sort of a pinch, with all four fingers of the strong hand on the gun under the trigger guard and near the front of the weak side grip panel, and the meaty part of the base of the thumb on the opposite side. This has been a secure draw for me with both my Production Glocks and my heavy (48 oz plus) Limited Paras, which are both dressed in Eric Weisselman's fine product.

This grip leaves all the backstrap and rear portions of the side panels open for the weak hand, and, I think just as important for my anatomy, gets the strong side thumb out of the way. A wiping motion, mostly with the weak hand driving foward, gets me the transfer and on target quickly.

edited for (hopefully better) clarity

Edited January 22, 2009 by kevin c

[Flexmoney]

Good question.

I haven't given this any consideration for a couple of years now. In the past, I tried different methods on the draw and transfer. I migrated back to getting a normal grip out of the holster and then just swapping the gun over. Running through the motions (dry), I find that I am looking at the target. If I were to look at the gun (and that sounds like it would be good to experiment with)...I think I'd look at the target up until the moment of transfer.

[LPatterson]

I'm looking toward the target, but not focused on it until the gun reaches mid chest level then I focus on the gun. With the revolver it is important that the grip is perfect or the trigger squeeze is not straight back and the front sight goes out of control.

[Joe4d]

Any body ever watched cowboy shooters ? many of them have this kinda draw on almost every stage so they deal with it much more than we do. Basicaly in cowboy depending on the division after they fire 5 and holster there strong side gun they draw there weekside gun switch to strong hand. (Now there are different divisions and some use crossdraw for second gun) But the mentioned shooters grab the gun on the top strap and barrel then transfer. Ive tried this as well but it isnt quite as smooth. The difference with Cowboy the weekhand always draws at the top strap. For us to use the technique our strong hand has to learn two draw strokes. I think the most efficient for us is to always draw the same then just deal with the transfer.

[G-ManBart]

Any body ever watched cowboy shooters ? many of them have this kinda draw on almost every stage so they deal with it much more than we do. Basicaly in cowboy depending on the division after they fire 5 and holster there strong side gun they draw there weekside gun switch to strong hand. (Now there are different divisions and some use crossdraw for second gun) But the mentioned shooters grab the gun on the top strap and barrel then transfer. Ive tried this as well but it isnt quite as smooth. The difference with Cowboy the weekhand always draws at the top strap. For us to use the technique our strong hand has to learn two draw strokes. I think the most efficient for us is to always draw the same then just deal with the transfer.

Interesting comparison.

I'm starting to think that maybe there's some difference depending on which division you're shooting in USPSA as well. I don't even think about the transfer with a Production gun (even have to do this for quarterly qualifications) or Single Stack. I've thought about it a little bit with the Limited gun but quite a bit for the Open gun. Maybe something in the overall weight and balance...not sure at this pint.

[pjb45]

GMan-Interesting timing of this post. I had a pretty good time going into the last string. I usually do a full strong hand draw and transfer to my weak hand. I did a fair number of practice draws this way.

On this last string, my weak hand must have it my mag release. I fired one shot, then my mag slipped. So my sub 5 second run went to 10 with three mikes. I am thinking I need to work on my transfer more. I might be trying your method.

BTW: did you notice where John did his transfer, if I am not mistaken, he did his soon after the gun left the holster and very low. hmmm. Maybe that is one of the reasons he is a GM! I thought he was looking at his gun.

[Neomet]

One more advantage to an Aimpoint. It makes a handy-dandy grab handle. Snatch the gun SH by the scope bring it up and let WH mount the gun. Gun stays perfectly straight up and down and there is a completely clear path for the WH. Very consistent.

edited because to use the word "perfectly" twice in he same sentence is well, less than perfect.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Neomet

[kgunz11]

I grab the top of the slide where the rear sight is. Works well with a Ghost or CR Speed holster. My wife, who shoots open, grabs her gun by the C-More and lifts it up in front of her and takes it with the left hand. Works well for her that way too. We actually spent the day today practicing this so she could get more comfortable. I took video if it helps explain what I'm trying to say.

[XRe]

I look at the target.

As far as the mechanics, I've tried several ways, all of them described here. The fastest, and most consistent, for me is to draw w/ normal grip and hand off. Coincidentally, this is also the exact same transfer that you'll be making when you shoot a VC stage that has a "draw, engage targets, reload, engage targets WHO" string in it. You're going to have to practice that gun transition anyway. So, no need to look at the gun for me - my hand is going to the same place its always going, and the gun is coming up to where the hands meet as normal...

[G-ManBart]

GMan-Interesting timing of this post. I had a pretty good time going into the last string. I usually do a full strong hand draw and transfer to my weak hand. I did a fair number of practice draws this way.

On this last string, my weak hand must have it my mag release. I fired one shot, then my mag slipped. So my sub 5 second run went to 10 with three mikes. I am thinking I need to work on my transfer more. I might be trying your method.

BTW: did you notice where John did his transfer, if I am not mistaken, he did his soon after the gun left the holster and very low. hmmm. Maybe that is one of the reasons he is a GM! I thought he was looking at his gun.

Hey Paul,

Actually, it was watching John make that transfer that got me thinking about it. It was very low....right after the gun cleared. I asked him and he said he wants the gun in his left hand as soon as it comes into his sight, similar to a normal draw. Very interesting!

John actually commented that my strong hand only draw and first shot was smoking fast, so I was happy about that. My transfer and first shot support hand only was solid and I was cooking along fine until I rushed the first shot on the last target. I knew I had a really good run going and pushed a little hard. That mike turned it into a 73% run.

73% WITH a freakin' mike....ouch, ouch, ouch....I haven't done the math, but that would probably have been somewhere around 90% I'd guess.

[G-ManBart]

I look at the target.

As far as the mechanics, I've tried several ways, all of them described here. The fastest, and most consistent, for me is to draw w/ normal grip and hand off. Coincidentally, this is also the exact same transfer that you'll be making when you shoot a VC stage that has a "draw, engage targets, reload, engage targets WHO" string in it. You're going to have to practice that gun transition anyway. So, no need to look at the gun for me - my hand is going to the same place its always going, and the gun is coming up to where the hands meet as normal...

Dave,

Thanks....that's good stuff.

I'm comfortable with the transition you describe of shooting freestyle, reload and then transfer to support hand only...hasn't caused me any problems and I do practice it.

I also practice looking at the target, drawing and transfer to support hand only and it hasn't given me any problems either, but it just occured to me that I've seen folks looking at the gun and I've never tried that. Just dry firing it, I couldn't tell which would actually be faster or more consistent for me and figured it was worth seeing what other folks think.

Now I'll just have to get out the timer and give each a thorough workout live fire and see what shakes out. Even if I wind up sticking with my current method (looking at the target) I figure it's not bad to have worked on the other way in case there's ever a reason to want to look at the gun for a particular stage...just another trick in the bag. R,

[ap38]

I like to draw the gun, either normally or by the magwell, then look the gun into the weak hand as the gun is level. Is that what others are describing by "looking at the gun"?