nmipsc Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Looks like more and more USPSA matches are giving away CASH to attract and pay only the top shooters to their matches. Distrubs me, what do you Guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Haven't noticed. Which matches specifically? What percentage of Level II + are doing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 <<Rant>> I think it sucks big. Joe Average shooter does not get into the game to give his money to subsidize top shooters. Shooting sports can do without the prima dona attitudes and the "I am entitled because I can do something better than the other guy" bullshit thought pattern that infest most sports now days. It is a real eye opener to see a nice friendly guy go from a low classification to a stuck up arrogant ass with nothing good to say or time to say it as a ... "top shooter." I have met and continue to meet really nice and grounded people that are at the top of the game. IMO the guys who won't come to a match without thinking of the payout have lost the way. They are surely the minority and do the sport more harm than good. <.02 worth from me. <<Rant Off>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I don't see the issue, as long as the match fees are not inflated to build a cash pool. If the money is going to trophies, then the same people are going to win the match and take home the trophies. If it goes to a prize table, then the same people are going to get first crack at the table. Those who are going to win are going to win. The SC State has been a cash back match as far back as I can remember and I know several people who have taken home checks. Not people anyone would think of as "top shooters". And the match continues to fill year after year with very reasonable entry fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 First off the money is so insignificant, that it doesn't really mater. Second some guys like to shot and not practice, or not practice enough, some guys like to win so they practice, and winning should be rewarded (cash, prizes, or trophies), mediocrity should not. The amount of time and money a "TOP" shooter has invested in him self will never be paid back, no sponsor dollars, and no winnings money will ever compare with the investment it takes to get good. Those that do break even or get ahead are selling stuff, or training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 If you are talking about cash as prizes INSTEAD of merchandise on a prize table then I am all for it. Our sectional does a payback and I like the fact that I get cash to spend as I see fit. I never get merchandise that I want or need from prize tables and it is usually a bit of a dispointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LChico Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Looks like more and more USPSA matches are giving away CASH to attract and pay only the top shooters to their matches. Distrubs me, what do you Guys think? Okay. The SC Section match has been a cash pay-back match since 1995 (so I've had a bit of experience running a cash payback match). 1. We don't do this to attract 'only the top shooters.' We started doing it because it is easier: it takes less time & effort than a prize table. You write checks & the shooters decide to buy their own shooting supplies, or to cover hotel and travel expenses. Trust me that the third place D Limited shooter is just as excited about getting a check as the GM who won the match. 2. We don't pay 'only the top shooters.' Last year we had 202 shooters and we awarded 69 plaques and I wrote 60 checks. Link to 2008 SC Awards. Of those 60 checks, only 4 were written to GM shooters. 37 were written to shooters B class or lower. We gave 5 awards to Revolver shooters and 7 to Single Stack shooters. 3. The entire prize distribution policy is posted in advance (everyone gets to see it BEFORE they send in an application). It is all sent again to every shooter as part of their confirmation letter for the match. No surprises. Any donated prizes or merchandise is distributed to registered shooters by random drawing. It does disturb me if people are changing to cash payback because they think it will attract 'top shooters.' But I suspect many matches are going this route for the same reasons we did. It is very time consuming to try and put together a prize table. All your staff are volunteers. The reality is that there is plenty to do in order to put on a quality match, without the headache of a prize table. Often, extra funds are used to purchase some prizes. With 6 divisions, doing it right & running 6 separate prize tables can be a pain. Many of our potential 'sponsors' are inundated with requests and in the current economy, they are cutting back on donations. Linda Chico (L-2035) SC Section Match Statistician Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Cash prizes are an easy way to balance the books for a match which has to end up with a zero balance after all expenses are paid. Many matches award their cash prizes based upon a spreadsheet which accounts for the number of shooters in each Division and Class. It is not uncommon for B Class shooters to receive larger awards than "top" shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John2A Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 First off the money is so insignificant, that it doesn't really mater. Second some guys like to shot and not practice, or not practice enough, some guys like to win so they practice, and winning should be rewarded (cash, prizes, or trophies), mediocrity should not. The amount of time and money a "TOP" shooter has invested in him self will never be paid back, no sponsor dollars, and no winnings money will ever compare with the investment it takes to get good. Those that do break even or get ahead are selling stuff, or training. I agree, I over heard a "TOP" shooter one time say that it is not fair that they have the same chance of winning a prize as a D class shooter at the prize table. I am a C class shooter but making strides to get better. There is a lot of work I am finding that goes into that. I have to listen and understand what I am being told and seeing. I have been shooting for fun for two years, now it is time to get better. I will be a A or M by the end of 2009 in SS. I am improving each time I pull the trigger. I have gotten more points than ever now just have to work on the speed part. I have a gun and load that I truly love and works 100%. With all the "work" that I am putting in I agree that those that win should be paid back for the sacrafices they have made. I may never make it to that level but I am going to give it the best shot possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 God forbid we actually reward performance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 My first major in Open was the Area 6 at Ant Hill a while ago. Cash payback was nice since it basically paid for my hotel & meal money (and I think a little more) for the weekend. The club I shot the most at when I lived in North Carolina was Range 14 on Fort Bragg. Granted it was club level, but since the match was held on the base, it was required to be 100% cash pay back. Pretty cool considering if you shot in Production and won the match, you garnered about $120-140 for your $20 match fee. What about ammo? Well that was a bonus. If you are active duty military and (I think) LE, and shooting 9mm or 45, you get 300 rounds of ammo. Pretty sweet all things considered. Point is that cash pay back isn't a bad thing. Heck...if it attracts the "top" shooters it's not a bad thing. It's just what that match does. You think that SMM3G, Fort Benning and Area 2 sell out fast because of the stages? Partially and it's why I like to go. In the end, if it's a great match people will go. What I find is that THIS is probably what draws the top guys more than anything. If it's got great prizes too...then everyone wants a slice of the pie. And...it's not a bad thing to have a great prize table...look at the Steel Challenge. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I agree with Linda (and others) that cash payback certainly can work well and is simpler to adminster than the traditional prize table. Personally, I prefer cash in most cases - although it is nice when you get something you can really use and it reminds you of the match everytime you use it. My complaint (and possibly that of the OP) is when a match offers a HUGE cash prize for HOA ONLY with no other payouts for anyone else. A local match earlier this year offered a $1000 for HOA only - no cash for anyone else. I voted with my feet and chose not to go - don't agree that the masses should subsidize a money race between a small handful of the top shooters - there were only half a dozen guys with a real shot at winning that money and everyone knows it. If the match had offered cash payouts for HOA and Class Winners, no problem - but the fact they chose to pay only HOA such a large sum wasn't something I could support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 God forbid we actually reward performance.... NO NO don't say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Looks like more and more USPSA matches are giving away CASH to attract and pay only the top shooters to their matches. Distrubs me, what do you Guys think? I don't see the problem. This isn't an inexpensive sport, and I don't have any problem with someone winning some cash along the way. Of course, what I'd really like to see are big checks and nice guns for the C and D class winners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmd Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I don't see a problem with cash payback for performance. Other shooting matches like Bowling Pin Shoots and Steel matches usually have cash payback and prizes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint U66 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 (edited) ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Why shouldn't someone get a little something back for all the time, effort, and money that is invested to become a "top" shooter? Edited December 2, 2008 by Clint U66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 First off the money is so insignificant, that it doesn't really mater. Second some guys like to shot and not practice, or not practice enough, some guys like to win so they practice, and winning should be rewarded (cash, prizes, or trophies), mediocrity should not. The amount of time and money a "TOP" shooter has invested in him self will never be paid back, no sponsor dollars, and no winnings money will ever compare with the investment it takes to get good. Those that do break even or get ahead are selling stuff, or training. +1. Well said sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooney Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Here, here! Paybacks, plaques and the like are good. That way the sponsors can choose how to donate, if they want to, without feeling pressured from so many folks with their requests for donations. I usually help set up and run matches (local) and have just the start of a grasp of what happens when a major match is produced. There is a HUGE amount of time and effort consumed by the volunteers, and we should applaud any decision made in regards to rewarding performance. If cash is the answer, excellent- I may never get to be HOA, but I sure wouldn't mind $20 or whatever back toward my gas, supplies, lodging, match fees, food, etc..... If companies wish to donate prizes, and the match decides they want to do cashback, cool- random draw for prizes (esp. for ROs and other volunteers) and reward the performance based upon a fair formula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGentry Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I had a similar conversation about a similar subject last week. My niece is a National top Chess player at the age of 9. They give out trophies all the way to 10th or 11th place. HUH!!!! Why are we rewarding loosing participants? If you win you win and if you loose - practice and get better. I am getting frustrated with this "it's ok everyone wins" philosophy CR*P!! Even if we did make cash payouts to top shooters on a regular basis - so what!! They got there by hard work, long hours and allot of THEIR OWN money! If you want to win - put the time and effort in! Not everyone in this sport due to many circumstances can afford to put the time and effort in and they shoot for the love of shooting! Fantastic!! Most matches pay out to class winners also - You are a C or D class shooter - you are in the money!! If the match is giving money to attract top shooters - Great - That means the average shooter gets to compete along side or next to top shooters - Merlin is also right - Always remember the people going up - you will see them going down - Most top shooters are easy to talk to and conduct themselves in a professional manner but as in any sport there are a few that stray from that. Our sport is unique in that you get to compete with the pros - Love it !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighVelocity Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I have yet to shoot a match with the possibility of a cash return and the idea would not influence my participation one way or the other. I get a LOT out of every match I shoot, from the camaraderie of fellow shooters to developing and improving my own skills. Don't forget the FUN, either. No prize check, or lack of, will change the match for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Q for the MD-- if, by paying, one way or the other, one or two really-top shooters to shoot your match and you thus got 20 more regular shooters because the top guys were there, would you do it? Several major-match MDs have told me the math works out, at least in their cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I shoot because I enjoy shooting. I attempt to estimate the cost/fun factor of a match and if the ratio is acceptable to me I go. If it is not acceptable, I do not go. If match fees are raised to increase the payoff, it affects the cost/fun factor. So it may affect whether or not I will attend the match. But how the money is split up in the end has no bearing on my attendance. On the flip side, whether or not some big name guy is shooting the match, also has no bearing on whether or not I will shoot it. Slav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Instead of plaques, trophys and cash I want to win ammo, so I can shoot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmipsc Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 so seems like most are OK with the top guys getting big cash and the Classes that support most matches the C and B shooters supsudize them? is that what i am reading? some are making a descison on where to shoot based on money payout . Example: Heard Taran Say on burkett's radio show he went to a glock match and could win $3000.00 instead of a frame at another match the same weekend. which started this question I also understand the easier to write checks than to call sponsors and plead. Just don't think you should pay CASH in an ametuar Sport it's a slippery slope. This N0 slight to the matches that Pay cash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 (edited) God forbid we actually reward performance.... If so, then the prizes should be strictly in order of finish / division and not per class. If a C shooter who won his class gets a bigger check/prize than a GM who came fourth (but still beat the C shooter by a landslide) we would essentially be promoting mediocrity (as well as getting into the always fun sandbagging discussion). IMHO, if prizes aren't awarded in order of finish, they might as well be raffled out, since that seems to be more fair than giving it out to class winners. Edited December 2, 2008 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now