New Open gun - 9mm or 38 super

[Jeff686]

Bart does have several good points. I guess it depends on your personal situation.

I'm shooting open on a budget. I bought a used Tanfoglio Gold Team, with very little custom work. My total investment on my gun, including mags and 2K of brass was under $2500.

I only shoot local matches (of which, three are within 30 minutes of home, woohoo!!). I only shoot in the big matches when they are local. My expenses for shooting are now basically limited to reloading supplies and gasoline.

Every time my wife sees that Starline charge on the credit card, she complains. "What do you need more brass for?"

I would love to have a 9mm! I'd buy used brass, shoot it once, and leave it. Easier on my back and my marriage. Granted, the difference in cost is as much perception (buy used, leave it on the ground, pay cash vs. new on credit card, pickup every piece I can find) as reality.

[JThompson]

Everyone keep using 38s... 9mm don't run for sheet. Do you self a favor and go with 38S SC.

Can I have all your 9mm brass?

Look. I run every piece of shit brass I find on the range and I have zero failures. I ran 100k over 18 months. I had a few issues when I got the gun and I figured it out. After that, I ran 60k through that bitch will no issues except the occasional brain fart high primer, dirty mag/gun. If I kept her clean and cleaned the mags, pay attention to the reloads, it flat out runs. You can ask many of the guys that shoot here. Has anyone ever seen my gun burp? Howard? Squishy? Chris? Anyone? Nope.

Personally I can't really feel much difference in the impulse between the too calibers..

JT

[03k64]

I recently bought a used open in 38sc and the first thing I did was send it off to be converted to 9 major mainly due to the cost of brass. I used it in my first open match yesterday and it ran perfectly. I was using tuned mags though.

Edited November 19, 2008 by 03k64

[shred]

Depends if you want to be cheap or not. Most all the top guys shoot rimless supers for competitive reasons. If you aren't there you'll probably wear out a gun getting there though.

Btw, you really don't want to ream a 9 to Super-- brass bulging big time.

[CJDOUBLETAP]

9mm is cheaper but a little less realiable unless you have a smith that can tune them good. 38 super is more realiable but the brass is very expensive.

[shooterbenedetto]

9mm is cheaper but a little less realiable unless you have a smith that can tune them good. 38 super is more realiable but the brass is very expensive.

JOJO VIDANEZ WAS THE FIRST TO GET THE 9MM OPEN TO WORK..HE KNOW HOW

TO TAME THE BEAST..EMAIL HIM AT JVDYNAMICS.COM

IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, HE WAS THE ONLY SUPER GM AT THE 2006 NATIONALS

THAT SHOWED UP WITH A 9MM AND EVERYONE ELSE FOLLOWED TO BUILD

GUNS IN 9MM AFTER FRONT SIGHT WROTE A SMALL ARTICLE ABOUT HIS GUNS.

TELL HIM ED BENEDETTO SENT YOU.

[G-ManBart]

9mm is cheaper but a little less realiable unless you have a smith that can tune them good. 38 super is more realiable but the brass is very expensive.

JOJO VIDANEZ WAS THE FIRST TO GET THE 9MM OPEN TO WORK..HE KNOW HOW

TO TAME THE BEAST..EMAIL HIM AT JVDYNAMICS.COM

IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, HE WAS THE ONLY SUPER GM AT THE 2006 NATIONALS

THAT SHOWED UP WITH A 9MM AND EVERYONE ELSE FOLLOWED TO BUILD

GUNS IN 9MM AFTER FRONT SIGHT WROTE A SMALL ARTICLE ABOUT HIS GUNS.

TELL HIM ED BENEDETTO SENT YOU.

STOP YELLING

Who's "everyone else"? Almost none of the super squad type guys are shooting a 9mm.

[JThompson]

I say shoot them both and if you like the 38 and brass price doesn't bother you, go for it. I really enjoy not having to worry about loss brass. When I'm outside, I just shoot it and leave it.

It can be somewhat annoying... when I'm up next, and some brass rat is scurrying around my stage as I'm going over my stage plan.

Edited November 19, 2008 by JThompson

[zhunter]

It can be somewhat annoying... when I'm up next, and some brass rat is scurrying around my stage as I'm going over my stage plan.

NO kidding, happened to me two weeks ago, on EVERY stage

[Carlos]

OP: noticed you are in the VA/MD section.

Around here in general, we don't hold up shoots to pick up brass & don't expect other squad members to scoop your brass for you; if you want it, you will be welcome to go pick it up yourself AFTER the match tear down.

I know that there are different local customs or practices in other parts of the country. But around here, time is in short supply & most local shoots are generally considered "lost brass" in order to keep things moving along.

Just something to consider in making your decision. Regards,

D.

[ExtremeShot]

It can be somewhat annoying... when I'm up next, and some brass rat is scurrying around my stage as I'm going over my stage plan.

NO kidding, happened to me two weeks ago, on EVERY stage

I think after the 2nd time I would have said something. ...Having the RO certification makes it a little easier to tell them to get the Eff out of the way.

[RV man]

I am a "C" class shooter so there are a lot of people much more qualified than I am, but I have had great results with 9mm. I bought a Trubor and have just run the dog out of it with STI mags. This gun has run everything from my IDPA moly loads that are really soft to 175 power factor loads without so much as a spring change. I'm just not sharp enough to realize I can't do that. I didn't want to be like the guys I see chasing a shooter through a stage and trying to catch their super brass in the air! I can usually bring more 9mm brass home than I used because a lot of production shooters don't pick up brass.

I hope whatever you decide works for you as well as mine has worked for me.

Open is a blast!!!

Bill

[boz1911]

It can be somewhat annoying... when I'm up next, and some brass rat is scurrying around my stage as I'm going over my stage plan.

NO kidding, happened to me two weeks ago, on EVERY stage

I don't care if they pick up brass, just don't get in my f-in way during my final walkthrough...

[boz1911]

I've got 2 open guns, both built by Dan Bedell. One is in 9 major and the other in 38SC. Both guns run like greased monkeys. That said, as soon as I shoot the final 800-900 rounds of 38SC, that gun will be for sale or rebarreled to 9mm.

Worrying about picking up brass is a pain in my azz!!

As far as loading 9 major, I use the utmost in care. I do not have any issues spilling powder, and I use a Dillon 1050. I sort all my brass by headstamp, it's cleaned prior to loading and after. I use a EGW U-die and chamber check all ammo.

I also use SV mags for reliablity and do not use any spacers.

I have not had any type of malfunction whatsoever in many, many months with the 9.

[XRe]

Used to be a day when people knew how to brass effectively without slowing the operation of the stage Yeah, believe it or not, we used to help each other shag brass...

I run Supercomp. I used to run 9x21 at 9x19 OAL shooting old Major. I would not be afraid of running 9x19 in Major - I don't think its a huge safety concern, if appropriate powders are chosen. However... I still question the practice of using random "once fired" (or worse, random crap off the berm floor) brass, especially mixed lot stuff. Reliability comes from a lot of tolerances working together to give you comfortable margins. Have you ever measured rim diameters, thicknesses, groove depth, etc, on a handful of random 9x19 cases? Set up an extractor that works for every one of those choices every time, with enough margin for error to protect you in all situations.... Good luck. No, if I ran 9x19 in my Open gun, it would look much like it does today with Supercomp - start with new brass, set the gun up for that brand, mark and pick brass, etc. I'd also run tests to be certain where the brass starts falling apart, so that I know the duty life of my brass... And it would basically be just as expensive as Supercomp (if not more, since 9x19 brass appears to not last as long at the higher pressures you have to run it at).

Perhaps that's a little old school for you guys

The longer Supercomp case does have a little more margin for error in terms of how its handled by the extractor... I believe a 9x19 can be set up to run fine, but again, its a game of tolerances, and the longer case has at least some small advantage here.

Finally, load choices in Supercomp are much more to my liking I can easily make Major PF with loads that are within, or close to, SAAMI pressure specs for the cartridge (well, for Super, anyway.... no SAAMI for Supercomp) - this means lower wear on the gun, overall, and less chance of breaking parts. It also allows me to tune a load with a powder that provides maximal pressure at the muzzle, which is where the pressure is actually effective....

This really all boils back to the quintessential argument between Super-ish and 9x19 for Major.... pick brass or not? And, I still feel like that's a moot argument, due to my feelings on brass above... (many folks report not having problems with random brass... I won't stake my game on things I can't control in that fashion, personally, so....)

Chris Bartolo makes some excellent points about cost of components vs the other money we spend to play this game

[Alan Meek]

My 10 cents on the subject.

Back in the late 80's when the 38 Supers were starting to show up in use, all that is being currently being said about the 9mm Major was said about the Supers. And back when the first 38 Super Hi-Caps were coming into the sport they also had reliability issue initially.

On Powder selection there are quite a few powders that can be used to make major, now I ask as soon as you settle on a powder load combination, do you ever really change it?

If you have a large investment in 38 Super/Supercomp then build a gun in 38 Super/Supercomp.

The only real decison is if you are building your first open gun, or you feel a need to change to 9 Major. Either will work and they will both work very well. Both do require some tuning initially but, as soon as that is done, either should work just fine.

My 9 majors are built on Caspian Hi-Caps, mags are 100% reliable and will work with either 9mm or 38 Super with no tuning required for 9mm.

Alan

In time there will be some top shooters using a 9mm Major, wait Rob Leatham has one now.

[ong45]

After shooting rimless super for years i dipped my toes into 9 major this year. Results so far have been mixed, had a bunch of malfs at the nationals but got it running afterwards and it ran 100% at A2. I think most of my problems were extraction related but maybe the rain and moisture at tulsa had something to do with it

I think from a purely mechanical point of view it's hard to beat TJ because of the huge extractor rebate. 9mm is a shorter case so it's not hard to imagine that there's less case length to get hung up in the ejection port.

I use new brass for anything important so cost wise i save on the cost of practice brass, not much difference there. The supers feel a bit better with the slower powders only if you shoot them side by side, After a couple of mags my 9mm load with silhouette feels just fine.

Not 100% sure i'll stick with 9 major, i mostly wanted to find out what it took to make it work.

[XRe]

I think from a purely mechanical point of view it's hard to beat TJ because of the huge extractor rebate.

Current generation Supercomp looks an awful lot like TJ... slightly less rebate, but a lot more than it used to have. The rebate really has very little to do with extraction reliability, though, assuming the extractor is set up right... Supercomp has a little more case capacity than TJ, it would seem (though I'm getting ready to launch into a definitive test here soon...)

9mm is a shorter case so it's not hard to imagine that there's less case length to get hung up in the ejection port.

You would think - the issue with case length isn't the amount of case to get hung up in the ejection port, though - its the amount of control you have over the case during extraction. There's a much longer (well, 4mm longer) period of time where control of the case is hold solely by the extractor w/ 9x19 (ie, the case is shorter is pulled out of the barrel for a longer period of time). I mean, you can eject live rounds all day long out of your gun, right? OAL of the case isn't a huge issue in ejection But, if you lose control of the case during extraction, and it dances around inside the ejection port, and doesn't contact the ejector in a controlled way... That's why extraction is a more critical issue for 9x19 than Superish calibers...

The supers feel a bit better with the slower powders only if you shoot them side by side, After a couple of mags my 9mm load with silhouette feels just fine.

The real key is not only comparing feel (you can almost get used to anything - and anything different than what you're used to will immediately feel a lot better or a lot worse), but performance on the timer and the targets... That's actually what drove me to treble my powder costs for this coming season!

[jjanglin]

I might add that I only shoot 38 super myself in an open gun.

I sorta dislike the reason for shooting 9mm is that some dont like to pick up brass

thats just not right to leave a mess for someone else to pick up,= Im 65 years old

and I pick up everything I put on the ground even 22 caliber cases. Their is

a weighted net that ya can buy to lay down to pick up brass.

Ive put together many differant forms of 9mm guns from open to carry, got a friend

who has a 6 inch 9mm I put together darn near as fun to shoot this gun as to dream

about my younger years chasing ^^%$$#@!!@$.

I dont like a 9mm period, My carry guns are a 45 or 38 super officers model.

Granted 9mm has come a long way and a lot of people like em ,Just not

my first choice.

Jim/Pa

sailor

[Jaxshooter]

Jim has built me two 9mm open guns this year. Both guns have run 100% since the day I received them. I have never owned a 38 SC that ran as good as these two guns. But I don't own a 38 SC built by Jim.

Edit to ad that he builds a great 6" limited gun also.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Jaxshooter

[BOGA]

My 9 major runs good and so far flawless for 2 1/2 years now. FL slide w brazos barrel/comp. 124/5 HAps, 3n38, smp's, diff stamp of brass. To those who dislike their 9major, Pls donate your brass to me hehehe ......

I also have 38S and another 9x23. both using 124/5Haps, 7625. I'll change the barrel of one of these 2 and make it as my back-up just in case i go to big matches.

Edited November 21, 2008 by BOGA

[bulm540]

Limcat builds reliable Open guns too. My brother's Open 9 has been reliable from day one. No issues at all.

[Jeff686]

I might add that I only shoot 38 super myself in an open gun.

I sorta dislike the reason for shooting 9mm is that some dont like to pick up brass

thats just not right to leave a mess for someone else to pick up,= Im 65 years old

and I pick up everything I put on the ground even 22 caliber cases. Their is

a weighted net that ya can buy to lay down to pick up brass.

Ive put together many differant forms of 9mm guns from open to carry, got a friend

who has a 6 inch 9mm I put together darn near as fun to shoot this gun as to dream

about my younger years chasing ^^%$$#@!!@$.

I dont like a 9mm period, My carry guns are a 45 or 38 super officers model.

Granted 9mm has come a long way and a lot of people like em ,Just not

my first choice.

Jim/Pa

sailor

Hi Jim,

I have a few friendly questions:

Do you have back problems? If not, count your blessings, because 80% of us do.

How do you use the weighted net at an IPSC match?

Have you ever participated in a large match where they forbid the picking up of brass? I think they do it to make the match run faster, and allow the shooter on-deck their official walk-through time.

I too police all my brass during practice and recreational shooting. However, during a match, I feel like picking brass is rude, and I feel bad doing it. If I try to pick it between shooters, I'm in the way and people are stumbling past me trying to walk-through or set/tape targets. I hate having my head down, searching for my brass, to realize that I'm the last person on the range, and the RO is waiting for me to get out of the way to start the next shooter. Finally, I would prefer to help tape targets and set steel, helping with the work, rather than selfishly search for brass.

In reality, I have to balance my time between discretely searching for brass and helping with squad duties. I WISH I could just leave the brass and enjoy the shooting. 9mm is cheap enough to do that.

In retrospective, however, you do have a very valid point about leaving the brass for someone else to deal with. I'll have to inquire at the clubs where I shoot how they handle brass clutter. I know of one local guy who sells clean, used brass. I thought that he got it off the range, tumbled and sorted it, and sold it for a few extra bucks. However, I'm not sure about the other places I shoot IPSC.

Thanks for you post Jim!!

[kgunz11]

Most of the clubs I shoot at ASK you to police your own brass. That doesn't stop some people from being rude when you do it. My wife shoots .38SC and we try to pick up her brass as much as possible, but we don't let it interfere with the rest of the squad. We'd rather leave a few pieces behind than be a nuisance. If we pick up someone else's brass we make it a point to give it to them.

[Squishy]

Both my open guns are 38 super. They run 100% with untuned 140mm mags . Big sticks are tuned. Cheap brass or not my next open gun will most likley be a 38 super. I see no reason to switch at this time. At local matches I pick up my brass before leaving that stage. If you don't like it tough. I have told many shooters to go pound sand. Help or shut up. At the end of the match I also stick around and help tear down the match . (do you) Sorry to sound pissy but picking up brass is part of shooting the match.

Darryl