Spray_N_Prey Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Ok so i'm no pro shooter but I try to be the best that I can be. I make sure my loads (I shoot production) hit around 128 PW and have actually taken parts off my gun once I learned weren't "production legal" because I want to shoot legit. I feel I would rather come in last place and shoot it fairly than have to cheat to win. ok my case: A friend and myself recently went to a yearly match that was for cash prizes and we got squadded with a guy who was hovering around top C class and had splits that would have made TGO envious (well maybe not that quick). I mean they were blazing fast but the funny thing is the gun never recoiled. I mean it didn't lift at all and he was shooting production. Now he did have plenty of mikes but the fast follow up shot sure did make a difference on shots. Everybody was talking about this saying things like "it sounds like a 22" and "you don't even need earplugs" i just am having a hard time letting it go. I even asked a guy on our squad if they were going to chrono or not and he laughed and said no not at this match and asked why I asked him that and I told him I didn't know if everybody in our squad would make power factor and he laughed again and said yeah i know what you mean i've really been wondering about that since the first match, and the guy I was talking to was an area coordinator. My buddy who has been shooting for a long time said he was shooting "super minor" and that some people just enjoy cheating and it makes them feel good. I looked this guys number up and he's shot alot but only at two local ranges and my friend told me that this guy either (a) will only shoot locally with matches that don't make you chrono ( if he ever does shoot a major match will either shoot for no score or have lots of mikes because of actually having to deal with recoil Ok so why does this still eat me up?????????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 No offense, but I would suggest not to get too consumed by it. One of the rules I try to live by is not allowing anything anyone else is doing affect me or my values and principles. I know it's out there, I just pay it no mind. I do "me", and can only concern myself with "me". What karma has in store for them, I can only imagine, if I even go that far as to care. I rather redirect that energy into concentrating on what "I" need to do in a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 "Now he did have plenty of mikes but the fast follow up shot sure did make a difference on shots. " Just two cents: Fast splits and misses do not a Production winner make. Go get your A hits at a reasonable pace, call each shot (not a quick double tap), make up the time on your movement and transition skills (THATS where most time is lost) and beat his butt straight up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillGarlandJr Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Ok so i'm no pro shooter but I try to be the best that I can be. I make sure my loads (I shoot production) hit around 128 PW and have actually taken parts off my gun once I learned weren't "production legal" because I want to shoot legit. I feel I would rather come in last place and shoot it fairly than have to cheat to win. ok my case:A friend and myself recently went to a yearly match that was for cash prizes and we got squadded with a guy who was hovering around top C class and had splits that would have made TGO envious (well maybe not that quick). I mean they were blazing fast but the funny thing is the gun never recoiled. I mean it didn't lift at all and he was shooting production. Now he did have plenty of mikes but the fast follow up shot sure did make a difference on shots. Everybody was talking about this saying things like "it sounds like a 22" and "you don't even need earplugs" i just am having a hard time letting it go. I even asked a guy on our squad if they were going to chrono or not and he laughed and said no not at this match and asked why I asked him that and I told him I didn't know if everybody in our squad would make power factor and he laughed again and said yeah i know what you mean i've really been wondering about that since the first match, and the guy I was talking to was an area coordinator. My buddy who has been shooting for a long time said he was shooting "super minor" and that some people just enjoy cheating and it makes them feel good. I looked this guys number up and he's shot alot but only at two local ranges and my friend told me that this guy either (a) will only shoot locally with matches that don't make you chrono ( if he ever does shoot a major match will either shoot for no score or have lots of mikes because of actually having to deal with recoil Ok so why does this still eat me up?????????????????????????? Well, I guess I'll add my two cents here....You mentioned there was no chrono there to verify if the shooter in question's ammo was making power factor or not. Given that, you could possibly be jumping the gun claiming this shooter is cheating by shooting ammo that is below power factor. I know of plenty of "C" shooters who are strong, athletic guys who are able to keep the gun pretty level in recoil and pull some fast splits....comparable to what you see with M and GM shooters at times. But the difference between the C shooter who is pulling fast splits and the M or GM who is pulling fast splits is the quality of hits. You said the shooter in question was pulling fast splits but was shooting plenty of misses, so it doesn't sound like there was any magic happening there. Secondly, there are some load combinations, mainly heavy bullets with fast powders, that give very short and almost quiet sound reports. As a matter of fact, the Atlanta Arms Team Glock load shoots very flat in terms of recoil and gives a short and quiet sound report, but I assure you it makes power factor and then some. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying your concern is unwarranted. But, accusing someone of cheating is a pretty serious charge against their character. Personally, I'd have a bit more information proving my accusations besides a C shooter pulling fast splits and getting poor hits, and his ammo not having as loud a report as others. This is a great sport, and for the most part the people who participate in it are good, honorable people. But it is a game, and in any game there will be people who try to cheat. There is only one way I know of to beat those folks.....practice your ass off and just get better than them. People can cheat with their ammo, and they can cheat with their gear, but in the end it really just comes down to who shoots better, cheating or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Get over it and get on with it... shooting that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 ....... I even asked a guy on our squad if they were going to chrono or not ........ Was there any steel at the match, and could he make it fall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 My loads chrono at a 138pf, but the difference in sound is very noticeable when compared to those competitors shooting major 40 loads or even factory 9mm. Good grip and stance equate into good recoil control and can give off the appearance of little or no recoil. I would suggest a few things: - Talk to the local match directors and ask them to set up a chrono for the next club match - Shoot your own game, practice, become a better shooter, and pound your competition - Talk to the shooter in question directly and ask him about his load Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Other have said shoot your own game, and I would agree. I shot my first USPSA match almost two years ago before I was a member. I just shot as accurately as I could, and didn't worry about my time at all. Others were shooting much faster than I but I just kept it in my head to get my hits. I won for L-10 that day. I am still Unclassed as the club I go to has some scores that seem to have been "lost", but I will not forget that lesson. Shoot your game, get your hits, have a good time. When you go to a match that has a chrono, you will makePF and you will shoot your best shooting your game. That other guy may or may not be cheating. I am not suprised when I see cheating, but how often does cheating get you somewhere in this game? How far can you really go if you only shoot local matches? It is better to shift your focus to shooting and hitting. Otherwise that guy has already gotten a leg up on you by getting in your head. It would be cool to ask about his load as PB says. Might be an interesting conversation. JZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Get over it and get on with it... shooting that is. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirpy Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 There is not much you can do about that shooter. Let me relate a story...I was shooting IDPA ESP (.38 Super). My loads are minor and I will stand for any chrono. I was squaded with 2 shooters who seemed to have a problem with my ammo. I can't say for sure but I believe they took some of my ammo while I was shooting a stage so they could chrono it (never heard from them after). What is worse...someone like that or your shooter? Neither of us know for sure and may never. JMO Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 In this situation there is only one thing to do. Beat him. Every time he shows up you need to make it your mission in life to top his score. If you can't do it now, work at it until you can. You'll feel much better. Tls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSabbath Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 (edited) If the guy is cheating, it'll catch up to him. It always does. He won't get away with that at a big match. More importantly, there is no advantage to going sub-minor in Production. The reason being poppers, especially at a big match. They tend to go heavy as the match progresses and may not go down. I load my stuff around 132 pf. When I hit a popper I want it to go down with authority---I don't want to stand there and look at if I need to move on to the next shooting area. The other reason is that I like a quicker cycle of the hotter loads; it helps my rhythm and I have better splits. So, you see, the guy may be putting himself at a disadvantage. Focus on your shooting and you'll pass him in no time the right way. Edited November 12, 2008 by BlackSabbath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Ok so why does this still eat me up? Elevate your game. Shoot big matches. Differentiate yourself. The rest melts away. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 All good advice so far. I will add that some 147gr loads I use that I KNOW are 135PF+ (chrono'd) sound/feel like .22s to me sometimes! Fast powder, heavy bullet, long barrel (G34) can make a load sound like a powder puff compared to a lighter bullet, slower powder, short barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 (edited) Ok so why does this still eat me up?????????????????????????? Because of your temperament and personality traits? Like I am one to give advice. Edited November 11, 2008 by Ron Ankeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSabbath Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 All good advice so far. I will add that some 147gr loads I use that I KNOW are 135PF+ (chrono'd) sound/feel like .22s to me sometimes! Fast powder, heavy bullet, long barrel (G34) can make a load sound like a powder puff compared to a lighter bullet, slower powder, short barrel. He's right. The 147 gr Precision bullet with 3.2 grains of Clay's Universal is a bunny fart load that chronos 132.5 out of a G-17/G-34. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 (edited) any time you get more than just 'annoyed" at what some-one els does . You empower them to have control over you. ... So what is the saying -"Get over it and Get Going"- AS you move up the scale in how much you are willing to give back to the game. You can take action by helping run the club & or helping set up stages with activating targets. Bring the most effective tool we have into play and using "peer pressure' to weed out actions that do not fit the sports foundation of DVC. The small club I run does not have a min power factor and it of course is not a USPSA club. One of my main directives is Safety 1st and thin fairness for every level or class of shooters in that class. In our matches we can even let shooters shoot the match with a 22 rime fire when it is just Steel Challenge stages. I just use a separate "sub minor' class to the scores as in Rim-fire. & When a shooter brings his mother out to shoot and if she shoots a 380, it is normally not much of a problem as her scores are not pushing out a D class shooter from the ladder. BUT at some of our matches we use poppers and activating targets to establish a power level close to the Min in USPSA. Some shooters have loads close to 200pf and some closer to 120 I try not to exclude any one that is safe and sane with their loads to participate. However When I go to a USPSA match I want USPSA rules & the match to be fair for all or it is Not Fair to any one JF Edited November 11, 2008 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I watched a guy shoot at a sectional I just KNEW wasn't going to make major at the cron. His gun flat out did not move and he shot blindingly fast. Then we hit the cron. 185PF. AND he won HOA. I Learned not to trust what I see of others from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 hi spray n prey, Ihe advice you have will do for your future competitions. I happen to like the idea that you should avoid letting such situations get into your head. Here is why it bothers you. simply put.... because you do not KNOW. One can play chess, and it is not a competitive games unless there is a clock. 'Tis the only thing that makes chess a fair competion. same thing here.... the problem you have it that you do not _know_ if it was fair. it may have been, it may not have been. and you won't know. If he had chrono-ed his ammo then you would know. Try to realize that you can and will pass by him. If he is cheating and is a C player, he will never get better. miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted November 11, 2008 Author Share Posted November 11, 2008 some good advise here. and no I guess we will never know if he was or not, but this wasn't an athletic guy nor musclular guy either, very skinny and scrawny (not knocking that either), it's just everyone on the squad had a pretty good idea of what was going on. and as Alamoshooter said, I did LET HIM get into my head and it really hurt my game ALOT that day. I guess that was the question that I was asking was how do you just block this and move on? how do you get stuff like that out of your head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 it's just everyone on the squad had a pretty good idea of what was going on. I guess that was the question that I was asking was how do you just block this and move on? how do you get stuff like that out of your head? To statement one.... not a single person on your squad KNEW what was going on. Everyone ASSumed that they knew what was going on. To your questions, all I can say is that if you think that you enjoy this sport understand that the most beautiful part of it is the individual responsibility of it. In other words you have so many things to worry about concerining your own performance that there is plenty of work that you should be doing long before you get to the point that you can worry about someone elses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I guess that was the question that I was asking was how do you just block this and move on? how do you get stuff like that out of your head? Here's how I do it: I don't give it any room in my mind. You're mind, although infinite, cannot process all of this at once. I consume myself and my mind with what I should be thinking about "my game". It's like a race horse at the Kentucky Derby, I have my blinders on which are what I've been working on, the COF in front of me and all I see is the finish line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 (edited) some good advise here. and no I guess we will never know if he was or not, but this wasn't an athletic guy nor musclular guy either, very skinny and scrawny (not knocking that either), it's just everyone on the squad had a pretty good idea of what was going on.and as Alamoshooter said, I did LET HIM get into my head and it really hurt my game ALOT that day. I guess that was the question that I was asking was how do you just block this and move on? how do you get stuff like that out of your head? As others have already stated, maybe you have more to learn from him than to scorn him for cheating. When I shoot with someone for the first time who appears to have an edge over the rest of us, I assume that he knows more about gun setup, loads, and technique than me. This may be a valuable learning experience. Edited November 11, 2008 by larry cazes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Don't waste time worrying about it. There are always going to be people trying to get over on the system. They usually aren't very competitive and get stuck at a pretty low level....before long you'll be whipping them with ease. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Everyone ASSumed that they knew what was going on. Good point. I was accused of not shooting power factor once--by a good friend too. He was serious, and he was angry!! I handed him a magazine off my belt and told him to take as many rounds to the chrono as he wished. That was the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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