9mm Major In Limited?

[Bear1142]

Just wanted to get your thoughts. Should the 40 diameter minimum for scoring major in Limited be removed? If the ammo makes major, what difference does it make if its a 9 or 40 or 45?

[RKooi]

You know the difference my friend; capacity. If I can get anywhere between 21 and 23 rounds of 9mm in a 140mm mag then why would I choose the lower capacity of the .40 or even worse the .45? We don't want to obsolete a bunch of existing Limited division equipment do we?

[cpty1]

Seems like everything does go full circle eventually. Once you could shoot 9mm major in open, then you couldn't, now you can again. I'll date myself a little bit here. In either 1988 or 1989, at the Roanoke VA Indoor Championship, a guy by the name of Walt Rauch shot a single stack goverment model pistol in 38 Super as major in the limited division.

[Mig]

Should the 40 diameter minimum for scoring major in Limited be removed?

Bear ... No

[jhgtyre]

Yes, 9mm should be allowed to make major in all divisions. Then I could make major with the equipment I already have.

-ld

[Skywalker]

Sorry Bear,

but I don't think major 9 is a matter of personal preference.

It has been decided to restrict 9 mm to minor scoring only because, at the time the decision was taken, you could only (safely) make major 9 with heavy bullets (>=147 grs) and some (few) specific powders in Open div. guns (ported, compensated and so on), all the rest was well over SAAMI specs for max pressure in 9mm.

This led also to lowering the PF threshold for Major to 160 for Open and 170 for Standard (IPSC rules), and only bullets over 120 grs for 9mm in Open div.

I would argue that current limitations on scoring major are dictated by what you can safely (generally speaking) do in loading your ammunitions, according to SAAMI specs.

Just my .02c

[lynn jones]

they are having the same discussion in Australia, since their government has outlawed calibers over .38

http://www.ipsc.org.au/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/Ulti...gi?action=intro

[shred]

I would argue that current limitations on scoring major are dictated by what you can safely (generally speaking) do in loading your ammunitions, according to SAAMI specs.

9x23's made Major since day 1, but it's not Limited-Major legal. I think the powers-that-be have a vested interest in keeping .40 the minimum-- lots of existing shooters will otherwise be very upset, and it lets us keep claiming some 'manliness' points so long as it starts with a "4".

It would be an interesting experiment to allow 9-major in Limited-10, where capacity's not the issue, but I always see it proposed for Limited.

[Wildman]

What does a 9 mm open major cartridge do to a Production Gun? A friend and I started this discussion over a public range we both practice at. We don't shoot ammo found lying on the ground, but others do. Any thoughts?

[jhgtyre]

What does a 9 mm open major cartridge do to a Production Gun? A friend and I started this discussion over a public range we both practice at. We don't shoot ammo found lying on the ground, but others do. Any thoughts?

First of all anyone who shoots ammo they find "on the ground" is just asking for trouble.

Secondly there is factory ammo that will make major in 9mm so a Production gun should be able to handle it.

Thirdly, as shred mentioned, there are 9mm's and then there are 9mm's. The 9x23, 9x21, and .38 super can all be loaded up to major without any problems.

-ld

[Wildman]

I agree, it would be dumb to shoot ammo off the ground. I've seen people do a lot of dumb things. I did say a public range.

What happens when a 9mm luger cartridge loaded to open major is fired in a dumb person's gun?

[Julien Boit]

Even if the 9 major would be allowed , i'd stick with my 40s.

First because I invested too much money in them to now throw them and take 9s.

Second because, sometimes, when that hit is reaaaaaaaaaaly close the border, and just come to kiss the line, and the RO tells you:

" it's a D, but if you've shot a 9, it would have been a mike"

This is that kind of case that makes you love a "bigger" caliber

[Chuck D]

I'd go one step further. I'd make a minimum power factor floor of 150. Make 150 or higher...get scored major. Chrono at 149.99.....you get sent home.

The days of major/minor are long past. Does it REALLY matter if what you get shot with ?

As far as capacity problems go...leave the USPSA DIVISIONS AS THEY ARE and the capacity differences matter little.

[Nik Habicht]

Erik,

I see your point and have heard the arguments on a number of occasions in favor fo the .357 Sig as well. That said, I think any change to the divisions that makes people leave the sport because their $2-7K investment in gun, back-up gun, reloading gear, mags, etc. became less competitive is a bad idea. Major 9 in Lim-10? That might make sense.

[jhgtyre]

I no sooner think they would leave the sport than did all of those loud mouth celebrities who claimed they would leave the country if Bush were elected president.

[Loves2Shoot]

The big problem I see with 9mm major is not the cost of people "feeling" like they have to switch equiptment. I shoot SV's, so if I want to switch caliber it is a new breachface, extractor and barrel, big deal, my .38 super mags work for 9mm. Gun cost is minor in shooting, the ammo cost is the bigest factor for people who want to be competetive.

That being said, I wouldn't shoot 9mm or 38 super in limited because I don't like like the way they handle in major without a comp, I think you would find a lot of shooters to agree that .38 supers aren't as easy to shoot as 40's sure you get 3 more rounds, but in most courses of fire that doesn't matter. I would HATE to reload as many rounds as I do having to load 9mm cases to the rim with powder, my workstation would be a mess!

The BIG reason I wouldn't advocate 9mm major in limited is because you would most likely get new shooters trying to take Glocks with unsupported barrels and little reloading experience and the combo of the two would be ripe for BOOM BOOM'ing perfectly good paperweights I would hate to see people getting hurt trying to make their stock guns major in 9mm.

How many poeple are geniunely shooting 9mm in open? Not many that I've seen, I have seen more than a couple guns for sale, hardly used 9mm major in limited making .40's less competetive, I think not.

[Skywalker]

Secondly there is factory ammo that will make major in 9mm so a Production gun should be able to handle it.

Thirdly, as shred mentioned, there are 9mm's and then there are 9mm's.  The 9x23, 9x21, and .38 super can all be loaded up to major without any problems.

Jhg,

I don't wanna imply that they do not exist, but can you name some of the manufacturers that produce major 9 mm ammo? I haven't found any up to now, but I didn't try many of them too, just Fiocchi, IMI, Geco, Samson, Concorde, MFS, and some other minor european manufacturers.

As I reported before, yes 9x21, 9x23 and .38 super can be loaded to major PF in guns for open div., because those guns have compensators, ports etc. and pressures (if loaded with specific powders and bullets) will come very close but not exceed SAAMI max specs.

In prod. or standard div. gun, well this is a whole different story.

I don't think a safe load making major PF can be arranged in a 4 or 5 inch-barreled, unsupported-chamber gun as those you can find competing, thus (IMO) the best we can do is to deny the possibility of major 9.

I will gladly change my mind about this if you can show us a 9mm major that complies with SAAMI specs in an un-comped, un-ported 5" barrel, but until that day, I insist we play on the safe side.

L2S,

here in Italy 9x21mm in open div. is quite the norm, with .38 super being the exception.

[Loves2Shoot]

Skywalker,

I'm sure there are a ton more Tangfolio's too, with frames that better accomodate 9mm better than .38, but here in the State there were a tone of people saying what a big deal making 9mm legal in open again would be, but the 9mm's have made a wimper, not a roar from what I've seen.

[Chriss Grube]

Win. LE +p+ 127 grain ammo makes major in a 5" barrel within SAAMI specs.

[jhgtyre]

According to Vihtavouri the data below is from a 4" barrel with a 1/10 twist. The highlighted load makes major.

-ld

Click here for the data.

[Alan Meek]

Yes it should be allowed. .357 Magnum is allowed in revolver to make major.

[shred]

Winchester white box 9x23. Advertised as 124@1460. 181 PF

[Flexmoney]

I just gotta point out that 357 in a fully-supported revolver, and 9x23 (some of the strongest brass around)...these aren't valid comparisons to shooting 9x19 in an unsupported, Glock (or any other "production-type" gun) going for Major.

This might be more of an issue of if it should it be done...not so much of if we can get there with the physics?

[Skywalker]

I just gotta point out that 357 in a fully-supported revolver, and 9x23 (some of the strongest brass around)...these aren't valid comparisons to shooting 9x19 in an unsupported,  Glock (or any other "production-type" gun) going for Major.

Ditto!

BTW, Jhg, the load you reported actually scores PF 165, which (according to actual rulebook) makes Major in Open div., but is scored minor in Standard div.

And, Chris, you are reporting a +p+ load, that should be safely shot only through +p+ factory approved guns (I would argue, by comparison, you wouldn't shoot +p+ .38 specials in a S&W model 10 manufactured at the beginning of XX century).

As I said before, it is a matter of pressure: if you can safely load 9 major in Standard or Prod guns under SAAMI specs, it should be allowed, otherwise it is simply dangerous.

[jhgtyre]

Skywalker67,

I showed you a published load, which is what you asked for, out of the barrel length you requested. The power factor listed makes it in Limited div in the US. What more information is required?

-ld