Sandbagging a classifier?

[dcarter]

Well, I'm not one of those accused. I finally busted into "B" this year in production and after, I realized it would take a lot better shooting to win anything at a major. It would appear as if a lot of "B" class shooters are shooting well above that level at major matches, beating out masters and some GM's. I guess my only recourse would be do shoot better....I will!

[Jim Norman]

I agree with Hero or Zero as a philosophy. I have tanked many times and I'd rather tank than have an almost score knock out a really good score. Happens just the same though. You think you really shot well and wind up just making a score that counts and losing a really good number so you now have to work all the harder to move up.

I am an A Class shooter, but if you took the best 6 classifiers I ever shot, I'd be an M. Am I really aan M? Not by a long shot, look at my scores in the Nationals. I have a tough time shooting in B at that level.

So, I make a run at a classifier and if it is good, it helps, I;d just as soon bust it out though as have it bust me.

As to the 'chatter' you hear at a match, turnst me, it is exactly what the rest have said, I hear is all the time and you just learn that it is only BS. What makes this clear is when the shooter in question tanks a non-classifier stage and his squadmates all laugh and ask him if he thought this stage was a classifier.

It is all in good fun and this group is about as much fun as you can have with out getting into trouble.

Jim

[clown]

Sandbag if you will, just don't broadcast it before you shoot the classifier. And please don't shoot headshots only on the el prez. That's a little obvious

[larry cazes]

It's one reason why I would like to see match performance included more in the classification system.

Isn't it already included? I thought that if you win your class at a level III match you automatically move up. Doesn't that make sandbagging a one time only trick?

This is not automatic. First time we shot Area2 my wife won her class and was NOT bumped up. We called HQ and talked to the person who handles this stuff and she said it doesnt happen unless it is specifically requested. That finish did show up as a classifier score, though.

Edited October 23, 2008 by larry cazes

[uscbigdawg]

Well Nik I think they'd contact the shooter as someone in a supposed position of authority and acknowledge that these accusations have been made against the person and get their point of view. Basically, do something that as a person "in charge" of that geographic area would do (i.e. ensure the integrity of the sport is not compromised on his watch).

Rich

[kgunz11]

So someone could shoot poorly on a classifier stage at a local match and still win the match by beating everyone else in the class outright on all the other stages correct?

It could happen, and it does I'm sure.

I hated to get bumped into B class with the state match coming up but it means somehow I have tuned myself to that level. Yeah, I would like to have done really well in the most populated division in my class, now I just have to focus on doing it in the next class up. When I first made it into B class I barely crossed the line. That was a month or 2 ago. Now I am at just over 69%. I don't think I have ever shot an A class score on a classifier though.

None of it really matters to me. I want to shoot against TGO, TJ, Max, Manny, Shannon, Sevigny, and all the other top guys. I don't care if I "win" or not. I am in this sport because I like the thrill of the competition, I enjoy shooting, and I love the fellowship. I have made some great friends, and had some great times.

My goal is to be a GM some day, but right now I am focused on making A class. I shot my first match in Gainesville, Georgia in March. Started out as a C class in an all day classifier we went to in preparation for Area 6. I have since shot another all day which landed me higher in B class. I feel good about moving up even though I know I am often way outclassed by the experienced guys that have been in the game for a while.

I feel real fortunate to be shooting with the likes of Todd, Rob, Joe, Mark, Brian, Randall, Chris, Peter, and some of the other great guys/shooters I have had the chance to shoot with. I have learned volumes from them all, some shooting, some life, all good experiences!

[Jman]

The "classifiers" are just another stage to shoot now days. Certainly not a barometer. I like checking my points percentage against the match winners.

Jim

[WDB]

It's one reason why I would like to see match performance included more in the classification system.

Isn't it already included? I thought that if you win your class at a level III match you automatically move up. Doesn't that make sandbagging a one time only trick?

This is not automatic. First time we shot Area2 my wife won her class and was NOT bumped up. We called HQ and talked to the person who handles this stuff and she said it doesnt happen unless it is specifically requested. That finish did show up as a classifier score, though.

This is a qoute from the Blue book:

USPSA Handgun Rules, January 2008 Edition • iii

"Your performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help

establish classification. Placement in a major event with a score above your

assigned class percentage may result in your being promoted to a higher class,

even if your current average is lower. Winning first or second in class at an Area

Championship or Major Tournament AND shooting into the next higher class

may result in promotion (except to Grand Master); winning High Overall in an

Area Championship may promote you to Grand Master class. In addition, if you

score 95% or higher at a USPSA national championship, you will be immediately

moved to Grand Master class for that division."

Nothing there about requesting it and I don't like the "may" part. Rules shouldn't have "may" unless explained.

"I have a few "classifiers" that come from major match results. The key is to have enough GMs in the division you are shooting for it to "make." I think it's 3 GMs, but the important point is that it's a hurtle."

And from the National Classifier Course Book, 4th Ed.

"A shooter’s performance in larger matches and tournaments

may also be used to help establish a classification.

In order for overall scores from a Level II or Level

III match to be entered as a classifier, the match director

must submit an Application for Level II or Level III

match with the “Results for Classification” check box

marked. Please note that there is no guarantee that the

overall results will be used. As a minimum requirement,

the results and competitor list will be reviewed at the

USPSA office to determine whether enough top shooters

completed the match and performed at a level high

enough to be considered a national standard.

If the match is determined to have satisfied all of the

requirements, the final score of the match may be entered

as a classification score for each shooter. Each division

is evaluated based on this criteria so it may be possible for

scores from one division to be used while the other

division is not.

Once again "may' and what is "enough". 3,4,5?

Who cares, it is the system we work with. Yeah, IT HAPPENS and don't let anybody tell you it don't. I used to get bent around the axle about the same thing but don't really worry about it any more.

Sorry for the thread drift, anything else would belong in a different sub-forum.

Just shoot it up and have fun!!!

Edited October 23, 2008 by WDB

[Fireant]

Yep, that may is the key. In 2007 my shooting buddy won the A6 in L10 as a B class shooter. On the drive up for the GA state he called headquarters to see why he was not bumped up to at least A class. They said that there were no GM's that shot in that division so no bump. So, he requested to be moved and they said no can do.

On the bump for winning your class in a major, only if you shoot the next class up's percent for the match. My goal for the nationals this year was to shoot 75%, well I only shot 71% so no help on my percentage there. It actually brought mine down.

[Nik Habicht]

Well Nik I think they'd contact the shooter as someone in a supposed position of authority and acknowledge that these accusations have been made against the person and get their point of view. Basically, do something that as a person "in charge" of that geographic area would do (i.e. ensure the integrity of the sport is not compromised on his watch).

Rich

Rich,

under the USPSA bylaws I see nothing that gives match directors any kind of authority to regulate sandbagging --- and very little for Section Coordinators either. Sure --- one could have a conversation with the shooter --- but to what end? The shooter can deny, or affirm --- there's not much that can be done beyond that, other than perhaps a 10.6.1 DQ. (Although I have problems with imposing those retroactively; and they'd be tough to prove in front of an arb committee in the future....)

I'm simply not sure that the integrity of the sport is compromised by sand- or grandbaggers. Consistent match administration and officiating have a larger bearing on the integrity of the sport. I know several shooters who can not shoot to their level of classification at the Nationals --- but who do seem to be able to put together a string of classifiers that are higher than their National abilities. Likewise I know of some shooters who excel at movement and hosing up close targets, but who have difficulties with shooting classifiers. It's almost impossible to know who's gaming the system --- and as long as upstanding people are able to be misclassified, I'm not sure that a sandbagger or a grandbagger negatively affects the sport to any greater level than the average misclassified shooter.....

For the record -- I've got a B card in production, and have never shot my classification percentage at the Nationals....

[boz1911]

I feel real fortunate to be shooting with the likes of Todd, Rob, Joe, Mark, Brian, Randall, Chris, Peter, and some of the other great guys/shooters I have had the chance to shoot with. I have learned volumes from them all, some shooting, some life, all good experiences!

Must be a different "Brian" cause I know I wasn't advocating following my FTE last Sunday with one of your own...same target no less

[rvb]

Money says you heard folks making jokes. I have involved in so many clubs in so many states......and I have yet to find this elusive sandbagger that always trashes the classifiers just to constantly win all of the prizes at every "big" match.

Hmmm. Look at your local matches for the B class guy consistently placing up with the Masters. Not that unusual, actually. Not always a Sandbagger but......

I know sandbagging does happen, but in the case of people placing out of their class, especially at locals, I'm sure the vast majority are people who just haven't made the bump. Consider the fact your % is based on best 6 of the last 8. At one classifier a match, that means 6 of your 8 last matches you had to shoot the classifier (and presumably the match) at a level ABOVE your current class. Add in gun malfunctions, brain fades, those pesky no shoots, self-imposed pressure, etc and it's certainly REASONABLE that a person could go a whole season [or more] shooting above their current class while trying to get 8 valid classifiers in. It's one of the things I like about the system. You have to CONSISTENTLY perform AT the next level to get the bump.... you can't just get lucky once and get it. So anyone consitently shooting above their class... mostly likely their class will catch up quite soon.

edited to add.... almost forgot to add my primary thoughts on the subject... WHO CARES? Shoot YOUR match. It's more fun that way!

-rvb

Edited October 24, 2008 by rvb

[ShaunH]

Hmmm. Look at your local matches for the B class guy consistently placing up with the Masters. Not that unusual, actually. Not always a Sandbagger but......

I know you're not trying to call anyone out but I resemble that last remark. I was a B class open shooter for over a year and I usually did well enough to finish fairly high in my local matches (when I was shooting on a regular basis.) I always do better in longer courses of fire v. classifiers because I don't dry fire. Therefore, my draws and reloads kinda suck. My best times cold for a draw at 10 yards on a full size target is probably around 1.6 to 1.7 and that's probably about the same time it takes me to do a reload.

So, I get the 'sandbagger' comment a lot and a little hate now and then, most of the time from people in my same class. I was talking to one of them about our respective performances a few months back at Area1 when I was still in B class and finished at 71% of Voigt overall. I would have probably been in the high 60's if Matt Mclearn wasn't scored minor. Despite all that, I'm still 'hey Sandbagger' to him.

Just made it into A class by the skin of my teeth at 75.3%, so I'm sure several guys will be happy that I'm not shooting B anymore.

Al, you've been sandbagging "B" since the earth cooled. Nice to see you made it to "A". Hope to shoot with you again soon so you can humble Norm a bit...he's out of control. He's been calling his open shorty "Charlene" and rubbing it in a most disturbing manner at the safety table.

[kgunz11]

I feel real fortunate to be shooting with the likes of Todd, Rob, Joe, Mark, Brian, Randall, Chris, Peter, and some of the other great guys/shooters I have had the chance to shoot with. I have learned volumes from them all, some shooting, some life, all good experiences!

Must be a different "Brian" cause I know I wasn't advocating following my FTE last Sunday with one of your own...same target no less

Monkey see monkey do

And yes Brian, you have been great about sharing your knowledge to both me and my wife. Always eager to help out or offer advice and it's always been spot on. I appreciate you and the others for being so friendly and making us feel welcomed.

Advice = Don't forget to shoot that target, if you don't you will lose 10 points and get a FTE, it will monumentally screw up the good day your having and keep you from shooting with Mark in the points.

The trigger pulled my finger and my brain farted.

The difference between intelligence and wisdom is experience.

[VegasOPM]

I'm ambivalent about classifiers as a whole. I know some folks that chase the class, and work on the "stand and shoot" aspect- especially classifiers. I know other folks that are better in the "run and gun" stuff. One of our top club finishers is an SS "B" shooter. He gets grief for sandbagging the classifiers, yet he doesn't even come close to winning "B" at Area matches- so how can his classification be questioned? I know another guy that takes classifiers (and every other stage) at 100% every time. He either pulls 90% or 20%- never in between. His stage finishes are either top or bottom 5.

I just can't seem to get my speed right on classifiers- either I miss too fast or I hit too slow. In Production I am a 53% "C" shooter, but in matches I usually finish with the "B" Limited guys. Of course that 53% includes 79.8% and 20.3% classifiers.

I am shooting in a Special 5 classifier match this weekend, so maybe I can get a handle on things.

[Carmoney]

I have involved in so many clubs in so many states......and I have yet to find this elusive sandbagger that always trashes the classifiers just to constantly win all of the prizes at every "big" match.

You must not have shot in Missouri.

[SharonAnne9x23]

years ago I was accused of sandbagging. My reply was, what have you ever seen me win at a big match??? I screw up on my own enough without sandbagging.

[Bigpops]

Folks...let me apologize for lashing out at Neo as I told him "Neo...yes I think we have a communication problem on my end...I apologize. I have received several PM's telling me I misunderstood. That being said I was frustrated. I lashed out at you and now I apologize. I should have made a general post...and will.

Wow...now I understand the popcorn comment at the start of my post...this is a touchy subject.

Last time I will say it , and this is for all of you that have PM'd me telling me I did not hear someone brag about sandbagging....I know what I heard. It does not need further explaination. It happens!

I was simply asking why someone would do it? I have yet to shoot a match that had prizes or awards. I feel that people, especially shooters, would always want to move up. I was seeking a higher explaination.

Whew....can't we all just get along? !

[Neomet]

Thanks bro'. Its all cake and ice cream here. I'm with you though, I really dislike cheaters. Personally, I don't get sandbaggers. They know they cheated so how can they feel good about placing well against shooters that they know aren't as good as them? I guess maybe it is for all the fame, glory and international attention one gets for doing better in B class than A at an Area match.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I shoot the classifiers to improve my ranking. Sometimes it works out and sometimes, well let just say it doesn't I am always trying to improve and have seen alot of shooters that do great at the match but seem to have gun problems on classifiers. Some guys really push hard on classifiers and others just take there time. I do think if you do well at two big matches then you should be moved up. After all we all have a good day once in a while There will be cheaters as long as there is competitions. Thanks, Eric

[tpcdvc]

I have yet to see this elusive creature called a "Sandbagger". He may be hanging out with Bigfoot. I don't know. In my experience every serious accusations of sandbagging fell in one of two categories.

1. A shooter that is say B class going on Master and his or her classification just wasn't able to keep up with their progress.

2. An IDPA or 3 gunner or someone from another country who has been shooting continuously but has not shot a USPSA classifier or big match for a long time. For someone to be a true sandbagger you would have to never shoot an area, national or even a large state match and just stick to club level and small state matches. Because a true sandbagger will surely win their class and definitely shoot a percentage above their class in a big match. And of course will be bumped up in classification. That being said I have seen instances of what could be construed as sandbagging. A example would be someone not shooting their division at a club match so they will not be bumped up before a major match. But I don't know if you can call them a sandbagger. Besides, in a short time they were moved up anyway.

In fact I have seen way more of the opposite. Folks that hold a classification that they really could never compete in at a big state of area match. Maybe we can call them "antibaggers"!!

At any rate, the classification system is not perfect but it seemed to work in my case. I made a point to never "go for it" on a classifier and shoot them just like every other stage in the match. So, when I did get bumped it turned out that I was actually competitive at big matches no matter what class I was in at the time. The all or nothing approach to shooting classifiers is something I never could understand. But people shoot for different reasons and if the classification is what you are after and it matters little if you can truly compete in that class then you should go for it I guess. But I don't think that was the intent behind the system.

[Chills1994]

The easy fix, in my opinion, for sandbagging is to get rid of the classification system at major sanctioned matches.

It's that simple: shoot head's up within divisions. So I guess I am with USCBIGDAWG and Mike Dalton on that.

If there are 3 GM's in your division, how your final score percentage shakes out relative to them, that's your new classification.

If USPSA still needs the money coming in on a monthly basis for the classifier scores submitted, then just keep the classification system at the local level, for whatever that would be worth.

Any prizes left on the prize table after the division champions get their picks first get distributed by the random drawing of names out of a hat.

In my opinion, how the scores are posted to the web, they aren't broken out by GM, M, A, B and so on (IDPA does break the scores down by class within a division for the official results), it really does make whatever letter is after my name seem kinda arbitrary.

It could be an omega or a theta for all I care.

If I am 10 out of 60, well then I am in the top 1/6th. If I am 15 out of 45, well, then I am in the top 1/3rd.

I know I don't go around telling people I placed 4th C in Single Stack. It makes more sense to tell them I placed 19 out of 100 shooters. It's easier to understand that way.

Pardon my thread drift....

[JThompson]

There are some out there that the GMs have a hard time making M. I watched Ted smoke one of them and I thought... wow that was fast. Turns out he was just barely in M with that run. Whether people want to admit it or not, there is an issue with some of the classifiers. I would like those issues to be addressed and add some more that were more relevant. Also, I'd like to see a way of taking overall finishes in matches into account. I'm not sure how we could do that, so I'm less concerned there.

Edited October 24, 2008 by JThompson

[ExtremeShot]

This has been proposed a million times. The results of doing this is that the membership will decline and the same guys will get all the prizes and recognition. The classification system is one of the main reasons why USPSA is one of the most popular shooting sports.

Darren

It's that simple: shoot head's up within divisions. So I guess I am with USCBIGDAWG and Mike Dalton on that.

[flyingchange]

On the bump for winning your class in a major, only if you shoot the next class up's percent for the match. My goal for the nationals this year was to shoot 75%, well I only shot 71% so no help on my percentage there. It actually brought mine down.

I don't know about that, my buddy won B class Production at this year's Nationals, came in at 71% and still got bumped into A with an overall classifier score of 74.309.

Edited October 24, 2008 by flyingchange