Sandbagging a classifier?

[Bigpops]

First off - I am new to the shooting sports so I am learning, so please enlighten me - Why do people openly brag about sandbagging a classifier/qualifier? I am confused as to what there is to gain by this practice.

I have my initial feelings on this, but before I state them I would prefer to hear an explaination. I have witnessed this on several occassions and have bit my tongue.

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post for all to read.

[JThompson]

First off - I am new to the shooting sports so I am learning, so please enlighten me - Why do people openly brag about sandbagging a classifier/qualifier? I am confused as to what there is to gain by this practice.

I have my initial feelings on this, but before I state them I would prefer to hear an explaination. I have witnessed this on several occassions and have bit my tongue.

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post for all to read.

Oh boy... If there was a popcorn.... anyway, I don't know of many people that brag about sandbagging. Some people do it so they can keep their classification low and have a better chance of winning their class or getting something from the prize table.

It's one reason why I would like to see match performance included more in the classification system.

[uscbigdawg]

If they're openly bragging about tanking a classifier, report it to the club President or your Section Coordinator.

Rich

ETA: I'm for eliminating the classification system at anything above a club match. I like the concept of Mike Dalton. Classifications work at the club level as it's a guide for improvement. At bigger matches, overall finish is all that matters.

Edited October 23, 2008 by uscbigdawg

[Aristotle]

First off - I am new to the shooting sports so I am learning, so please enlighten me - Why do people openly brag about sandbagging a classifier/qualifier? I am confused as to what there is to gain by this practice.

I have my initial feelings on this, but before I state them I would prefer to hear an explaination. I have witnessed this on several occassions and have bit my tongue.

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post for all to read.

I may get joked around with if I tank a classifier being accused of "sandbagging". But I don't know many people that will openly brag about purposely sandbagging a classifier.

The appeal is that when you compete in a sanctioned/major event is and you are not in the class you "should" be you beat everyone in your class and win a trophy/recognition.

[-JQ-]

I know it looks like I'm sandbagging from my scores...but REALLY stink at weakhand!

[ChrisStock]

Oh boy... If there was a popcorn....

Yep...

Some people do it so they can keep their classification low and have a better chance of winning their class or getting something from the prize table.

My thoughts on it as well...especially after seeing someone do it multiple times. Irritating.

[Bigpops]

I chalked up a couple of the so called bragging as an attempt to make themselves look better than what how were performing on that day....but the others were pretty darn serious.

I didn't know them so I just listened.

To me? I always want to advance and be challeged. I would rather be the lowest B shooter than the top C, and so on and so on. Im my opinion when one sandbags it just diminishes the entire system.

Ok...getting off my soapbox now.

[zhunter]

:blizzard:

[SA Friday]

I chalked up a couple of the so called bragging as an attempt to make themselves look better than what how were performing on that day....

Ya, that happens. Especially with a group that shoots together a lot. It can start out as "Damn Russ, did you sandbag that one good enough?" after Russ tanks a classifier. Then there are others that have received enough sandbagging jokes you hear something like: after totally tanking a classifier, Rob B. said, "Ya, just keeping myself in B Class till after xxxxx match."

That's just pretty much guy bonding stuff. It might seem odd to an outsider, but everyone in the group knows they just tanked the stage unintentionally.

but the others were pretty darn serious.

Yep, it happens. Some people just don't get it. In the long run it catches up. Karma....

There's a third element in all of this too. A lot of shooters live with the philosophy of zero or hero for classifiers. They go for the gold on every classifier. They either tank it or get a good score. I kind of agree with this thought process. I've been hurt by classifiers that counted but lowdered my percentage. So, it can sometimes be difficult to really tell what was going through the shooter's mind (if anything) when they shot the classifier.

I just ignore the whole thing and shoot my game for better or worse with the intentional sandbaggers. As for the guys ribbing each other... well, I did use accurate names . Guess you could say I'm usually the one (of many) starting all of that kinda stuff in my group.

[moverfive]

I chalked up a couple of the so called bragging as an attempt to make themselves look better than what how were performing on that day....but the others were pretty darn serious.

I didn't know them so I just listened.

To me? I always want to advance and be challeged. I would rather be the lowest B shooter than the top C, and so on and so on. Im my opinion when one sandbags it just diminishes the entire system.

Ok...getting off my soapbox now.

Money says you heard folks making jokes. I have involved in so many clubs in so many states......and I have yet to find this elusive sandbagger that always trashes the classifiers just to constantly win all of the prizes at every "big" match.

However, I probably hear comments/jokes similar to what you heard at just about EVERY match. And yes, those comments are usually directed at a small group of folks. Now while that "group of folks" are good shooters, they always seem to screw up the classifier in some fashion.....hence the jokes. But I know for a fact that they just suck at the skills typically required to shoot consistent classifiers. And when you look at their major performances, they are commensurate with their current classification.

......However, if I thought anyone was sandbagging or deliberately keeping their classification low, I as the club president and section coordinator would be correcting that "problem" quickly. And as I stated before, I have yet to make one correction.

So again, you probably just heard folks making fun of each other.

[ima45dv8]

I've never intentionally tanked a classifier, but I have a tendency to do it unintentionally. Despite the cautionary advice scattered throughout this forum I often let the fact that it is a classifier stage get inside my head. On those occasions where I successfully ignore that fact and just shoot it/them like any other stage in the match I do OK. But as SA said, it's real easy for me to get into 'hero or zero'-mode.

For me one of the worst things is to know I'm getting close to my next higher classification and start telling myself, "I need to shoot XXX on this one to move up." Going to the line with that (or any other) intention, that "trying", is what kills me.

The joking around about it is just that. If someone in our normal group of Usual Suspects was found to be deliberately sandbagging, they'd catch pure hell.

[Bigpops]

I chalked up a couple of the so called bragging as an attempt to make themselves look better than what how were performing on that day....but the others were pretty darn serious.

I didn't know them so I just listened.

To me? I always want to advance and be challeged. I would rather be the lowest B shooter than the top C, and so on and so on. Im my opinion when one sandbags it just diminishes the entire system.

Ok...getting off my soapbox now.

Money says you heard folks making jokes. I have involved in so many clubs in so many states......and I have yet to find this elusive sandbagger that always trashes the classifiers just to constantly win all of the prizes at every "big" match.

However, I probably hear comments/jokes similar to what you heard at just about EVERY match. And yes, those comments are usually directed at a small group of folks. Now while that "group of folks" are good shooters, they always seem to screw up the classifier in some fashion.....hence the jokes. But I know for a fact that they just suck at the skills typically required to shoot consistent classifiers. And when you look at their major performances, they are commensurate with their current classification.

......However, if I thought anyone was sandbagging or deliberately keeping their classification low, I as the club president and section coordinator would be correcting that "problem" quickly. And as I stated before, I have yet to make one correction.

So again, you probably just heard folks making fun of each other.

I hear ya.

Make no mistake about it....I know the difference between good natured ribbing and being serious.

[larry cazes]

Money says you heard folks making jokes. I have involved in so many clubs in so many states......and I have yet to find this elusive sandbagger that always trashes the classifiers just to constantly win all of the prizes at every "big" match.

Hmmm. Look at your local matches for the B class guy consistently placing up with the Masters. Not that unusual, actually. Not always a Sandbagger but......

[kevin c]

I remember being "on the cusp" of making A in Limited, and being frustrated by classifiers that would actually lower my percentage, not raise it (I am one of those who never is at his best doing classifiers).

I realized that, to make A, a reasonable strategy was to go for broke - boom or bust. Either I shot A class numbers or I'd blow out so badly that the score would be chucked as below the B class floor.

I wouldn't deliberately trash the classifier, but I was running beyond the ragged edge (for me) that got me the next level a bit sooner than I might really have deserved it. It was a form of grandbagging that looked like sandbagging...

[Bigpops]

All - thanks for the feedback! I have yet to shoot for prizes so that was new to me and explains a little. Heck, it's all new to me as I have shot 2 USPSA matches so far.

Glad to see my experience is the exception and not the norm. Always a few controversial subjects in every sport.

Either way....I am having a BLAST! I wouldn't change it for anything.

Besides I use the negative for motivation to do well!

[al503]

Hmmm. Look at your local matches for the B class guy consistently placing up with the Masters. Not that unusual, actually. Not always a Sandbagger but......

I know you're not trying to call anyone out but I resemble that last remark. I was a B class open shooter for over a year and I usually did well enough to finish fairly high in my local matches (when I was shooting on a regular basis.) I always do better in longer courses of fire v. classifiers because I don't dry fire. Therefore, my draws and reloads kinda suck. My best times cold for a draw at 10 yards on a full size target is probably around 1.6 to 1.7 and that's probably about the same time it takes me to do a reload.

So, I get the 'sandbagger' comment a lot and a little hate now and then, most of the time from people in my same class. I was talking to one of them about our respective performances a few months back at Area1 when I was still in B class and finished at 71% of Voigt overall. I would have probably been in the high 60's if Matt Mclearn wasn't scored minor. Despite all that, I'm still 'hey Sandbagger' to him.

Just made it into A class by the skin of my teeth at 75.3%, so I'm sure several guys will be happy that I'm not shooting B anymore.

[Nik Habicht]

If they're openly bragging about tanking a classifier, report it to the club President or your Section Coordinator.

Rich

And what exactly are we to do about it when someone reports it?

[sslav]

It's one reason why I would like to see match performance included more in the classification system.

Isn't it already included? I thought that if you win your class at a level III match you automatically move up. Doesn't that make sandbagging a one time only trick?

[al503]

I thought that if you win your class at a level III match you automatically move up. Doesn't that make sandbagging a one time only trick?

I think you have win your class and have your percentage in the next class level to move up.

[Neomet]

Another less heinous explanation for the comment was that somebody actually screwed up on a classifier (killed a no shoot, dropped a reload, whatever) and was joking when they made the comment.

Bragging that you sandbagged a classifier is the same as saying you cheated on a stage. People just don't brag about that kinda stuff.

[DrShooter]

I have a few "classifiers" that come from major match results. The key is to have enough GMs in the division you are shooting for it to "make." I think it's 3 GMs, but the important point is that it's a hurtle.

I usually find that it's a challenge to make my classification percentage at a major match when there are GMs in my division (at Area 1 there weren't any in SS).

At the 2007 nationals, I downloaded all the shooters scores and had the computer sort out who made it. Lot's of Ds and Cs made it, lots of Bs (like me), As, Ms, and GMs didn't. I mean how many GMs finish below 95% at the Nationals? Most of them; I think that's probably normal---more normal than sandbagging anyway.

Classifiers are hard and good shooters will find it difficult to always make their rating (above C). Plus, as commentors have pointed out, it's easy to "tank" a classifier at a local match if you go too fast. If you're trying to win the local match, and you're an A shooter, it's probably safer to go at C or low-B speed to get some points out of it towards winning the match.

I've been trying to make B in Limited by speeding up, and I've been racking up several "D" scores lately. More than I ever had before. It's not sandbagging, but an honest rating of my classification at that speed

[GentlemanJim]

Classifiers Dont really test your complete bag o tricks.

I crash and burn on them all the time

Recently I shot 79.9% at the N.M. sectional..am I an A shooter?...NO

That score got me second B ...and it was one of my best days of shooting .

I want to move up and will do my best at the classifiers ...but the darn things seem to kick my butt

sand bagging is present at some matches I have seen it, shot against it...and lost to it

But it is an exception...not the rule.

Jim

[Bigpops]

Another less heinous explanation for the comment was that somebody actually screwed up on a classifier (killed a no shoot, dropped a reload, whatever) and was joking when they made the comment.

Bragging that you sandbagged a classifier is the same as saying you cheated on a stage. People just don't brag about that kinda stuff.

I cannot make this any more clear....what I speak of was comments made before the match even started. It was a private conversation that I overheard concerning a previous match. I do know the difference. Would you please quit debating what you did not hear?

If anyone thinks this sort of action does not exist...well, I need to try what your smoking.

My intent, or purpose of this post was simply to find out why people would do it...plain and simple.

Don't debate what I heard!

Now.....back to something more positive!

[Bigpops]

Classifiers Dont really test your complete bag o tricks.

I crash and burn on them all the time

Recently I shot 79.9% at the N.M. sectional..am I an A shooter?...NO

That score got me second B ...and it was one of my best days of shooting .

I want to move up and will do my best at the classifiers ...but the darn things seem to kick my butt

sand bagging is present at some matches I have seen it, shot against it...and lost to it

But it is an exception...not the rule.

Jim

I agree...thanks Jim.

[JThompson]

I have a few "classifiers" that come from major match results. The key is to have enough GMs in the division you are shooting for it to "make." I think it's 3 GMs, but the important point is that it's a hurtle.

I usually find that it's a challenge to make my classification percentage at a major match when there are GMs in my division (at Area 1 there weren't any in SS).

At the 2007 nationals, I downloaded all the shooters scores and had the computer sort out who made it. Lot's of Ds and Cs made it, lots of Bs (like me), As, Ms, and GMs didn't. I mean how many GMs finish below 95% at the Nationals? Most of them; I think that's probably normal---more normal than sandbagging anyway.

Classifiers are hard and good shooters will find it difficult to always make their rating (above C). Plus, as commentors have pointed out, it's easy to "tank" a classifier at a local match if you go too fast. If you're trying to win the local match, and you're an A shooter, it's probably safer to go at C or low-B speed to get some points out of it towards winning the match.

I've been trying to make B in Limited by speeding up, and I've been racking up several "D" scores lately. More than I ever had before. It's not sandbagging, but an honest rating of my classification at that speed

I dunno if this is true or not, but I also heard you have to score the percentage against the GMs too. Say you win B, but you weren't at A percent of the GMs.... then you don't get bumped. As I said, that's what I heard, but I can't back it up. Mayhap one of the big dogs chime in.

JT