WorldShoot in Bali : No Rob, No Todd, No Dave, No Phil....?

[caps]

There are probably 99% of 2008 WS participants hoping that their ammo arrives for this match. But no one, except the local shooters, have any guarantees at all.

I think the point being made by chuckw and others is that if the US team didn't ship any ammo at all like other countries did, we can't make excuses about crappy match ammo not working in our guns. Failing to plan is planning to fail!

[shred]

We were just discussing this today. The way the WS team/contingent works in the US is way different from other countries.

In IPSC Elbonia, you often have a 'team manager' whose sole job before the match is to get you and your compadres there, lodged and with all equipment and ammo in place. Once at the match, they basically run around, make sure you get where you need to go and go-fer everything you might need. Should you DQ or something like that, your team manager will be talking to the RO within 5 minutes to determine what they might be able to do vis-a-vis arbitration or appeal to the RM or whatever..

In the US, everybody is expected to do all that organization and management yourself. At the European Championships, I had to declare myself the US team manager on the spot so we could march in the opening ceremonies. There's a lot we don't do that we could.

[Jasonub]

easiest solution is for the ws organizers leave maybe 10 or 20 units of dillon 650's and 550's

then there will be heads that will be officialized like maybe teflon heads

for super and 9mm - 125 & 130 gr

for 40- 200 and 180 gr

and standard powder like 3n37 and n320

and standard primes like cci or winchester.

Then allow each shooter to load for a couple of hours to load what he/she normally uses

I know there will be a lot of issues but the solution is a start.

As for security, we will be hiring all the mall ninjas who will probably pay their own fare to be in a presigious competition. they will patrol the area ala "Geko" and save us all from the terrorists

now back to our regular programming

[Skywalker]

In IPSC Elbonia, you often have a 'team manager' whose sole job before the match is to get you and your compadres there, lodged and with all equipment and ammo in place. Once at the match, they basically run around, make sure you get where you need to go and go-fer everything you might need. Should you DQ or something like that, your team manager will be talking to the RO within 5 minutes to determine what they might be able to do vis-a-vis arbitration or appeal to the RM or whatever..

I want to expand on this.

For major competitions, like Lev. IV or V matches, a member of IPSC Italy BoD is usually appointed as Delegation Chief.

His main assignments are:

- Working out a deal with travel agencies to get the best travel/accomodation options for the whole contingent.

- Taking care of guns and ammunitions licenses/permits and transportation through various customs.

- Assisting official teams throughout the whole competition.

Of course, any of the above assignments are worked out with the help of different people: for examle, I have been working with our delegation chief concerning the first point, our RD has been helping with the second one, and official team managers (one for each team) usually help with latter.

I always thought this was the way to do things; think about the olympics: athletes attending are not required to take care of anything else than their performance, for the rest there's local federations working it out.

[chemepharmd]

After much discussion / debate, it looks like this thread could really pay off. It may or may not be too late to do much this year, but surely USPSA could be prepared to offer its shooters assistance like this in the future, even if only at the WS. I'm sure there would be a lot more work than first comes to mind, but this sounds like a really good idea. It wouldn't eliminate all reasons that people choose not to go, but it could really help those who choose to go.

[Chuck Anderson]

There are probably 99% of 2008 WS participants hoping that their ammo arrives for this match. But no one, except the local shooters, have any guarantees at all.

I think the point being made by chuckw and others is that if the US team didn't ship any ammo at all like other countries did, we can't make excuses about crappy match ammo not working in our guns. Failing to plan is planning to fail!

I get the point. You're failing to see history. In 2005 ammo was shipped months ahead with a backup plan of Armscor factory ammo that was supposed to be there at the match. Both plans failed. But they were plans. This year there is match ammo. From the folks I've talked to it's pretty good ammo. I'm not sure if the majority of US shooters are taking advantage of the Armscor plan or not. I'm betting either way, everyone going has a plan right now to get ammo there. And I'm also betting everyone going that isn't local is hoping their ammo will arrive. But until it does, there is no guarantee. Even Italy and the rest of the folks that have shipped their ammo have no guarantee that it will arrive intact.

I also want to make the point that I don't think the match ammo at this match will be crappy. From everything I've seen and heard about this ammo it should actually be quite good. I know Armscor has a lot riding on this and they were vilified in 2005. I don't think that was right. I know many folks in that country worked their asses off to make it happen. The fact that they worked that hard and still couldn't get it done says a lot about the problems involved.

[Sharyn]

Did you or are you shipping ammo? I didn't think you could ship it from the US.

I'm not going this time around. But I shipped ammo out to South Africa in 2002, it got there... I, unfortunately did not (damn anti-malaria medication )

Paul, what company did you ship with? UPS and DHL said "absolutely not" and FedEx said "We could... if we didn't have to go through Sydney to get to Indonesia. Sydney has a hazardous material embargo on the U.S."

Getting the ammo there has been THE major issue for Shannon and I (and I'm sure most other US shooters). Most options we have involve some sort of illegal activity and we're going to avoid those.

We pre-purchased the Armscor match ammo but we're trying to get our own there too. We also ordered some of the Armscor ammo to practice with before departing the U.S. However, I've had difficulties with Armscor brass in the past and would REALLY prefer my own loads.

I'm also in the process of contacting some Florida Dangerous Goods packaging companies as you cannot ship the ammo internationally without being packaged by Certified personnel (or, it's illegal). This will require us to take an 8 hour round-trip drive to these locations.

Also, we had previously booked flights with Continental, out of Tampa, to Bali. We researched and were in compliance with Continentals firearms/ammo policies. Then, Continental discontinued their Guam to Bali service (due to gas prices, they said) and we had to rebook with China Airlines, whose flight departs from either Los Angeles or San Francisco. So... we had to book a seperate flight with Southwest from Tampa to LAX. Therefore changing airlines and having to recheck our luggage (aka firearms/ammo) out of LAX. Anyone who flies with firearms/ammo frequently will understand the variety of challenges we are destined to face at LAX...

This has been extremely difficult and expensive... comments like "lack of planning" and "gun should run with any ammo" really strike a nerve.

Good luck to all the U.S. shooters in the same boat as us!!!

[kgunz11]

I stand behind my statement, it's called reliability, in my mags and my weapon. I am confident that with any quality factory ammunition my weapon will run 100%. Rather or not the Armscor ammo is quality or not I do not know. I recently started reloading so it was important to me that each of my 4 STI limited guns, my STI single stack, and my STI open gun run on a factory available ammunition. I even had the open gun set up so that it would run major and minor PF ammo. My .38SC extractor was set so that it would also run .38 Super, in case I ever had to use it.

The AMU guys are getting the ammo there somehow, maybe a cooperative effort with them might help others too, and they use factory commercial loaded publicly available ammunition.

My apologies ma'am for striking any nerves, but there is a method to my madness. I wish you all a safe and prosperous journey.

[BritinUSA]

As far as I remember someone organised a shipment direct to South Africa. All we had to do at the shooter end was package up the ammo and send it to that company that was going to do the shipping. So it was a group thing not an individual effort. Which is why a Team Manager role is so important for these matches, somthing that I think USPSA needs to address in future.

I shipped my ammo via FEDEX to the company in USA that actually did the shipping via container ship.

It is probably too late to organise something similar now... You do have one other option.

When I flew to the Philippines in 1999 I got authorisation from the airline to carry over 11lbs of ammo on the flight.

You can try sending an email to SouthWest and China Airlines and explain the situation to them, explain that it's going to be less than 1000 rounds (which the State Department allows you to export/import for your own use) and see what happens. Make sure you spell it out, that you are competing for the US Team at a World Championship, that the ammo is for your own use in sporting firearms. Tell them that the guns will be dis-assembled (field strip) and locked in hardside cases inside your suitcase. Indicate that the ammo will be in a separate hard-sided locked suitcase. Indicate that you will have a signed declaration indicating that you are complying with all import/export regulations. As long as their butt is covered they may be able to help you.

They may not understand all the terminology so make sure you spell everything out and indicate that you are complying with all import/export regulations etc.

If you can weigh out the amount that you need to take, say 200 rounds more than you need, you can then use the local ammo for practice only. Then tell the airline exactly how much (in pounds and kilos) that you want to take. Weigh the ammo in the ammo box, it will be easier when you get to check in. Print off any emails that you get from the airline as well, it will make things go smoother at the check-in counter.

If you are polite and ask for help, then you may be surprised at the amount of leeway that you can get from the airline.

Philippine Airlines allowed me to carry up to 55lbs of ammo, just as a result of a letter !

[racerba]

Also, we had previously booked flights with Continental, out of Tampa, to Bali. We researched and were in compliance with Continentals firearms/ammo policies. Then, Continental discontinued their Guam to Bali service (due to gas prices, they said) and we had to rebook with China Airlines, whose flight departs from either Los Angeles or San Francisco. So... we had to book a seperate flight with Southwest from Tampa to LAX. Therefore changing airlines and having to recheck our luggage (aka firearms/ammo) out of LAX. Anyone who flies with firearms/ammo frequently will understand the variety of challenges we are destined to face at LAX...

The leg of my flight from NY to Thailand was also cancelled. I now have to fly from NY to LAX to Thailand. I don't think I have to recheck my bags at LAX. Check with the airlines to see if you can book through to Bali so you don't have to recheck your bags at LAX.

[Jim Norman]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I can understand that a lot of folks are concerned regarding ammo. (We'll leave all the rest out for the moment)

Stating that a gun should run 100% on any ammo that fits is fine. Any car will get you downtown, but will it run LeMans? We are talking about very high-end custom built guns that are optimized for particular ammo. WallyWorld White MIGHT run, but will it make the appropriate gas to operate a comp the same way that the ammo the gun was built around does? Not likely.

A GI issue 1911 as originally designed was supposed to make I believe a 6" group at 50 yards. Anyone here happy with that accuracy? That gun could be taken apart without tools, cleaned off in a bucket of water, lubed with 30 weight and would run. The tolerances were shall we say a bit loose. The tighter a machine (Gun) is built, the more finicky it will be. Does anyone really want to spend 5-15k to travel halfway around the world to shoot a singleshot 4k gun in a world championship? I wouldn't, thats for sure!

It will be interesting after the WS is over to get the after action reports on shipping of ammo and access to guns at the hotel. I hope everyone gets all their personal ammo there on time. I hope those that ordered ArmsCor get it and that it runs.

Jim

[kgunz11]

I am going to make an effort to contact the powers at be with the USAMU. They are out to lunch right now but when they return I'm going to see what their resolve is for getting ammo there. Maybe they can get some there for other shooters that plan to attend as well.

[kgunz11]

BTW, I'm not going and have no plans of going. I'm using my own time in an effort to help those that are.

[smokshwn]

When I flew to the Philippines in 1999 I got authorisation from the airline to carry over 11lbs of ammo on the flight.

You can try sending an email to SouthWest and China Airlines and explain the situation to them, explain that it's going to be less than 1000 rounds (which the State Department allows you to export/import for your own use) and see what happens. Make sure you spell it out, that you are competing for the US Team at a World Championship, that the ammo is for your own use in sporting firearms. Tell them that the guns will be dis-assembled (field strip) and locked in hardside cases inside your suitcase. Indicate that the ammo will be in a separate hard-sided locked suitcase. Indicate that you will have a signed declaration indicating that you are complying with all import/export regulations. As long as their butt is covered they may be able to help you.

They may not understand all the terminology so make sure you spell everything out and indicate that you are complying with all import/export regulations etc.

If you can weigh out the amount that you need to take, say 200 rounds more than you need, you can then use the local ammo for practice only. Then tell the airline exactly how much (in pounds and kilos) that you want to take. Weigh the ammo in the ammo box, it will be easier when you get to check in. Print off any emails that you get from the airline as well, it will make things go smoother at the check-in counter.

If you are polite and ask for help, then you may be surprised at the amount of leeway that you can get from the airline.

Philippine Airlines allowed me to carry up to 55lbs of ammo, just as a result of a letter !

Not that the above is extraordinary effort, but if it took that much communication in 1999, I would bet dollars to donuts that ten years later the amount of ass covering needed would be much greater.

[racerba]

Maybe they can get some there for other shooters that plan to attend as well.

At this point in the game, I would hope that anybody who is going would already have plans to get their ammo there. It would be great if the Army can just drop all our ammo there while they do a fly-by. For me, this is one reason I am shooting PD - I don't have to worry too much about how the ammo is going to work in my gun.

[Sharyn]

kgunz11, you're not understanding. I can only speak for myself, but It's not necessarily a matter of reliability. I'm sure my gun will run as Derek will tune it to whatever my needs are... However, my current loads are finely tuned to my gun... Change one aspect and my ability to perform at my best is hampered.

edit: Awesome kgunz11, thank you! I'd appreciate any information that you can provide on ammo shipment.

Take a look at the "swimsuit controversy" in the Olympics... Equipment matters. How is it a fair competition of the BEST in the World if each competitor cannot utilize their own equipment?

And, not to conjure the rumor mill... but I've heard that the AMU guys did not receive clearance. I'll verify this and get back what I find out. That means three U.S. team members are out... HALF the Open team.

Paul, thanks for the info! Being a rookie at this, I wish I had the time earlier to arrange this. I didn't fully understand the challenges we'd face... and I had faith in USPSA and their experience with these matters, that this would have already been resolved. My mistake. We've really looked into and addressed your recommended avenues for the most part. The switch in airlines has proposed a whole new set of issues. Have you ever tried to communicate with China Airlines? English is not their primary language...

racerba, thank you for your info as well. We have already contacted China Airlines and Southwest and we must recheck our bags at LAX as we are changing airlines. You should probably verify this for yourself as well. Make sure you are not on a "partner" airline as they may not honor the rules/regs of the airline you booked with.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Sharyn

[chuckw]

I am going to make an effort to contact the powers at be with the USAMU. They are out to lunch right now but when they return I'm going to see what their resolve is for getting ammo there.

If it involves a C130 and a parachute, can I be the one to tell Vince?

[kgunz11]

And, not to conjure the rumor mill... but I've heard that the AMU guys did not receive clearance. I'll verify this and get back what I find out. That means three U.S. team members are out... HALF the Open team.

I'll be able to confirm or deny that report ma'am as soon as the command returns from lunch. I can pass along contact info if you like, but I am working on finding a way to get your ammo there. Not that I am any better at any of it that you are, but 2 brains are better than one, and I AM willing to help support my countries shooters in their journey.

[racerba]

racerba, thank you for your info as well. We have already contacted China Airlines and Southwest and we must recheck our bags at LAX as we are changing airlines. You should probably verify this for yourself as well. Make sure you are not on a "partner" airline as they may not honor the rules/regs of the airline you booked with.

I will be flying on partner airlines. I believe that my bags will be checked through to Bali. I only have to worry about the guns since I am using Armscor's ammo.

[BritinUSA]

Not that the above is extraordinary effort, but if it took that much communication in 1999, I would bet dollars to donuts that ten years later the amount of ass covering needed would be much greater.

Actually it all boiled down to a single letter to the airline, took about 30 minutes to write it up. I agree that it may be more problematical today, but you never know...

[Rob Boudrie]

123. 17c Temporary export of firearms and ammunition for personal use - U.S. persons may export temporarily not more than three non-automatic firearms and not more than 1,000 cartridges of ammunition provided this is for the person's exclusive use and not for re-export or other transfer of ownership (i.e., firearms for use on hunting trips or sporting events).

So our team could've had their handloads exported. Maybe there's still time?

The "personal exemption" allows individuals to take the ammo in their luggage when traveling. This does not necessarily cover handing the ammo over to a shipper for delivery to another person in the destination nation, even if you assert they will give it to you when you arrive. If you were asserting that 123.17c allows you to ship ammo to Indonesia by common carrier, you would also have to conclude that you could ship up to 3 handguns there as well without an export license - and it should be pretty obvious that isn't the case.

So, please be careful about statements like "So our team could've had their handloads exported" when the authority you cite for that statement does not address the core complication - the 11 lb airline limit combined with the logistical difficulty of having ammo shipped overseas via commercial carrier.

[kgunz11]

Sharyn I have solved your problems.

PM me immediately for my contact information.

And yes, the AMU team WILL be attending.

[Jack Suber]

In 2005, when I knew the WS ammo would not arrive in Ecuador, I bought tickets for my wife, son and daughter to they could each carry 11lbs of ammo in their bags. Given that we are allowed by DOS to travel with up to 1000 rounds of ammo, why do the airlines impose a limit of 11lbs. Think about it. I personally could not claim more than 11lbs. Yet my family transported 44lbs? Whats the point of the 11lb limit if the airlines are not limiting the total amount of ammo on each flight?

I would like to see USPSA negotiate with an airline to work around this limitation and allow more ammo - even for an additional fee. The 11lb restriction is foolish and arbitrary - especially if my then 8 year old daughter could claim 11lbs of ammo.

[BritinUSA]

The 11lb limit is only an advisory.

Airlines can carry as much as they want, which is why it's always a good idea to ask them.

[Sharyn]

Thank you for the information, Bobby.

I've also been in contact with a Hazardous Material compliance company out of Miami. They inspect goods and prepare documentation for the exportation of hazardous materials (required by any shipping company). The issue we've run into here is that in order to receive appropriate Department of Transportation paperwork, the hazardous material must be tested by the DOT and deemed safe for shipment. If I were shipping 1K of Remington ammunition, that might be ok... but for custom, hand-loaded ammo, we've run into another roadblock. That person is contacting their boss to see if there's a solution.

edited to add: The issue is not getting the ammo to another country, per se... it's getting it OUT of the U.S.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Sharyn