WorldShoot in Bali : No Rob, No Todd, No Dave, No Phil....?

[BritinUSA]

The lack of ammunition was a significant problem for a large number of shooters at the last World Shoot in Ecuador. It is possible to export ammunition but it is fraught with potential problems. If you can find a friendly airline then you can bring in excess of 11lb onto the plane. For the 1999 WS I arranged with the airline to bring about 1000 rounds with me regardless of the weight.

For Standard/Production divisions factory ammunition should be ok and readily available at the match. For the Open/Modified divisions the exact setup becomes an issue.

I suspect the security issue is the main reason for the lack of attendance. There are travel advisories for this reason that explicitly recommend avoiding major sporting events.

[FranDoc]

Reality check (IMHO): no member of the WS Team 'owes an explanation' to anyone outside of family and sponsors. Any 'explanation' to 'inquiring minds' on this Forum is purely discretionary and certainly should not be expected.

I believe that the Sate Department travel advisory speaks for itself. The statement, " ... make it extremely difficult for the Embassy to respond to U.S. citizen emergencies" is telling.

The risk of personal harm is real and significant. A 'high value hostage' is NOT an IDPA target with hands spray painted on it.

Each competitor and visitor must determine if the financial costs, physiologic stresses, and risks of abduction, imprisonment, torture and/or death are 'worth it' to attend a discretionary (high-profile, therefore high-risk) sporting event. Do not minimize or disregard that risk. This ain't Kansas, Dorothy.

Godspeed to all who choose to attend.

Edited August 12, 2008 by FranDoc

[el pres]

Taran mentioned this a while back on Burkett's show and he pretty much

stated security as the #1 concern.

[Ben Stoeger]

IMHO I think security is a substitute for the real reasons.

I wouldn't miss the WS for anything in my power but I shoot IPSC and the WS is the biggest match for IPSC shooters, I don't think it is for USPSA shooters.

What are the real reasons? Im just kinda curious....

[Chuck Anderson]

I've talked to a couple of these guys and security was the number one reason. I think another would be too many factors out of their control. A lot of the guys at the top are control freaks about their equipment. And I'm not saying that in a bad way. Most of them for a major match are going to have practiced with the gun and ammo they are going to shoot for awhile before the match. They are going to just grab a pile of ammo from Wal-Mart and give it a go (With the exception of Jarrett at the 2006 Production Nationals and you can see how well that worked out for him). There are a ton of "issues" with this match. Abiltiy to get good ammo there (see the 2005 debacle and ask how many of the guys that shot the Armscor stuff, that finally did show, liked it), Match dates that changed after the initial announcement, an airline that suddenly stopped flying there from the US, and expense. Most of the guys mentioned have to pay, at least in part their own way. Whether they make their living teaching or in marketing, almost all have a job other than being a range bum.

As far as the difference between USPSA top shooters and the rest of the world, there is a big difference. Most IPSC shooters, from countries outside the US, have to travel outside their country to go to major matches. The Europeans frequently travel to different countries for awesome matches like the EHC and the Extreme Euro. In the US we have an abundance of great matches here in our country and most of the USPSA folks don't travel outside the US.

[caps]

I've talked to a couple of these guys and security was the number one reason.

Seems "security concerns" is the top "reason" against every ws from Cebu and Africa and Ecuador and now Bali. If we hold the next ws in Tulsa, what do we tell Euros when they ask about "security concerns" here in the US? We're not only the #1 target for all the crazies in the world but we even had domestic terrorism in Oklahoma City, so who are we to criticize? Will we guarantee the safety of o/s visitors?

[JohnRodriguez]

apparently security and personal well being doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to not shoot the match in bali for some people in this forum. Last year, I was offered a job in Grasberg, indonesia at one of the mines that the company I work for has there. My first comment was if I got to bring my own firearms or if the company was going to supply me with some when I got there. Their comment was that they would supply the security for company personal. If I have to rely on someone else to protect me then I not interested in the Job. Any of the US shooters are more than capable of defendiing themselves from any type of attact short of a bombing which the chicken shit type of mentalitly in that part of the world has and uses regularly. More than likely the shooters will be required to have there guns in a lockup when they are away from the range, which puts them in the catagory of just another stupid american tourist in a place they should have never been in. Short of Eric G. the rest of the division will not have a the true world champion for 2008. As far as revolver division then the US nationsals will have Ricky Lopez and Jerry Fighting it out and that will be the true world champ. My opionon.

[bgary]

A lot of the guys at the top are control freaks about their equipment. ... There are a ton of "issues" with this match. Abiltiy to get good ammo ...Match dates that changed ...

Yeah, and more. My understanding is that the moment competitors arrive, they have to surrender their gun to the police, who will basically keep possussion of it in a secured "armory" the whole time you're in the country. You'd be allowed to "check it out of the armory" when it is your turn to shoot, but as soon as you are done you have to check it back in. I suck, and I don't know nuthin', but even I would be "perturbed" if I couldn't work on my gun in my room, dryfire in my room, etc, etc. Can't imagine what that would be like for one of the "control freaks".

They say (?) they will have an "armory" set up at the match hotel, so it "won't be inconvenient", but... even still.

I've been reliably informed that if a competitor is staying at one of the [five?] match hotels, he/she *will* be able to retain possession of their gun. It only has to be stored at an armory if they are staying "somewhere else".

B (in my best Emily LaTella voice.... "never mind")

Edited August 12, 2008 by bgary

[PhilTerry]

A lot of the guys at the top are control freaks about their equipment. ... There are a ton of "issues" with this match. Abiltiy to get good ammo ...Match dates that changed ...

Yeah, and more. My understanding is that the moment competitors arrive, they have to surrender their gun to the police, who will basically keep possussion of it in a secured "armory" the whole time you're in the country. You'd be allowed to "check it out of the armory" when it is your turn to shoot, but as soon as you are done you have to check it back in. I suck, and I don't know nuthin', but even I would be "perturbed" if I couldn't work on my gun in my room, dryfire in my room, etc, etc. Can't imagine what that would be like for one of the "control freaks".

They say (?) they will have an "armory" set up at the match hotel, so it "won't be inconvenient", but... even still.

B

At the 1999 Nationals in Vegas - hotel security kept our guns in the secure room at the hotel and we were not allowed to take them to our rooms. We could clean, dry fire practice etc in the secure area to our hearts content but not take possession of them until we were going to the range. I don't see a big difference between that and the rules for Bali.

[HSMITH]

And it gets more obvious all the time why a lot of the top shooters don't bother spending much time with this stuff.....

[Greg Bell]

+1 HSmith

[dsb45acp]

I don't think that speculating why someone may or may not go to the WS is relevant and that wasn't why I replied. I also don't think any body owes me or anyone else an explanation for their actions. I just believe that it's best to ask a direct question of someone then to second guess and listen to rumor. That is the only reason replied to the original post and forwarded as I did.

[shred]

I'm going. I suspect a reason some top guys aren't going is there's just not that much in it for those guys winning a (or another) WS. Will it get them more business? Will their sponsors ask/pay for them to go? Not if they have a reason like security. If they don't win, what does that do for them? That leaves them spending a few grand (except maybe MV-- USPSA may be paying that ride) to shoot a match slightly different than they're used to, way around the world, pretty much for the fun of it.

That's why I'm going. It's fun.

The storage rules are your guns have to be locked up overnight. Check 'em in before 11pm, out after 7am. Security-wise, Bali is a major tourist destination, as opposed to say, Columbia or El Salvador or Nicaragua, all of which I've shot international matches at and not had security worries while I was there (before, yes; at, no)

[XRe]

Reality check (IMHO): no member of the WS Team 'owes an explanation' to anyone outside of family and sponsors.

Well put, Fran

Seems "security concerns" is the top "reason" against every ws from Cebu and Africa and Ecuador and now Bali. If we hold the next ws in Tulsa, what do we tell Euros when they ask about "security concerns" here in the US? We're not only the #1 target for all the crazies in the world but we even had domestic terrorism in Oklahoma City, so who are we to criticize? Will we guarantee the safety of o/s visitors?

Oh, that's easy. We tell them to not stay at the match hotel (if its the HI its at now), and keep their guns loaded in their rooms. Nothing's ever guaranteed. However, unlike some of the other places we've been to for World Shoots in the past couple of decades, the fact that you're essentially unable to defend yourself in a place where there's a lot of anti-American sentiment (I know, I know, Bali isn't Muslim and "doesn't hate America" ... but the whole rest of the country is and does...). See Bruce's post.

But, I don't think anyone is criticizing the place - its simply an observation of fact. The religious and political differences between the US and parts of the rest of the world have created the situation - that's not IPSC's fault, but its most certainly a factor for an individual trying to determine whether to go or not. To imply that acknowledging that is somehow disingenuous or overly critical is a little silly....

Short of Eric G. the rest of the division will not have a the true world champion for 2008. As far as revolver division then the US nationsals will have Ricky Lopez and Jerry Fighting it out and that will be the true world champ. My opionon.

This is rather unfair, as well. You're ignoring the fact that there are some highly talented shooters going to the match from all around the world (including the US). You can only compete against who shows up. Winning the match when someone's favorite doesn't show doesn't at all diminish the effort required to win.

And, its by no means a done deal that anyone has locked up the win in Open division. Everyone is tied right now, and so it will stay until shots are fired.

At the 1999 Nationals in Vegas - hotel security kept our guns in the secure room at the hotel and we were not allowed to take them to our rooms.

Is it illegal in Las Vegas to posses a handgun in your hotel room, or something? Or was this hotel staffed by a bunch of liberal pricks? We boycotted a hotel in Wichita Falls, TX, because they had a 30.06 sign in the lobby. I'd have been hunting up a new hotel, myself...

[XRe]

Holy Crap, Batman! Its Dalmas!!!!

I wouldn't miss the WS for anything in my power but I shoot IPSC and the WS is the biggest match for IPSC shooters, I don't think it is for USPSA shooters.

I think this just depends upon the shooter - we're a bit lucky in that we can stay in-country and shoot a lot of good matches... But nothing here compares to the size and scope of a World Shoot (at least, in a lot of folks' opinions). The Nationals, and a couple of the Area matches are big, fun matches, and good, solid tests - but they're not the same thing, at all....

[Ben Stoeger]

Nobody INDIVIDUALLY owes anyone an explanation as to why they go or don't go.

I think asking why so many people aren't going is legit though. (better planning in the future)

[outerlimits]

A lot of the guys at the top are control freaks about their equipment. ... There are a ton of "issues" with this match. Abiltiy to get good ammo ...Match dates that changed ...

Yeah, and more. My understanding is that the moment competitors arrive, they have to surrender their gun to the police, who will basically keep possussion of it in a secured "armory" the whole time you're in the country. You'd be allowed to "check it out of the armory" when it is your turn to shoot, but as soon as you are done you have to check it back in. I suck, and I don't know nuthin', but even I would be "perturbed" if I couldn't work on my gun in my room, dryfire in my room, etc, etc. Can't imagine what that would be like for one of the "control freaks".

They say (?) they will have an "armory" set up at the match hotel, so it "won't be inconvenient", but... even still.

B

At the 1999 Nationals in Vegas - hotel security kept our guns in the secure room at the hotel and we were not allowed to take them to our rooms. We could clean, dry fire practice etc in the secure area to our hearts content but not take possession of them until we were going to the range. I don't see a big difference between that and the rules for Bali.

wtf hotel were you in? i stayed at the luxor, and pretty much dry fired in my room all night (well, there were other things). IAC, no way was a hotel asking for weapons.

[smokshwn]

I've talked to a couple of these guys and security was the number one reason.

so who are we to criticize?

Who says it was a criticism?

There have been many legitimate reasons that could affect any particular competitors desire to travel to the world shoot. My question is, who are you to question anyone's decision to participate or not?

And Howard, definitely in agreement to your post.

Edited August 12, 2008 by smokshwn

[OpnBlstr]

Maybe the WS will visit a 'First World' country in the next few years.

Jim

USSA in 2011! We can only hope!

It's NOT hard for competitors to bring guns into the USA. They can bring all the ammo they can fly with and if they need more we have several suppliers of top notch product.

Oh, and they don't have to worry about getting blown up in their hotel!

If the economy continues in the current direction then by 2011 it will be downright cheap for foreign visitors.

[sfinney]

From wikipedia:

"The Bali as a tourist paradise which was instigated during the pre World War II colonial time was revised in a modern form, and the resulting large growth in tourism has led to Balinese standards of living rise dramatically and significant foreign exchange earned for the country. A bombing in 2002 by militant Islamists in the tourist area of Kuta killed 202 people, mostly foreigners. This attack, and another in 2005, severely affected tourism, bringing much economic hardship to the island."

Anyone from the U.S.A. traveling abroad, especially in the middle or far east, needs to be aware that there are not only people who do not like them (specifically for being American), but those whose every desire is to actively bring harm to them. Not to say you should not travel, but you need to be aware of the potential and very real dangers that exist, and let your personal security "comfort level" guide you. If your comfort level happens to NOT be traveling to a region known for an active radical muslim element, thats for each individual to decide, and no one else should question that decision. Especially over a game (only about 5% of the Bali popluation follow Islam, but the island seems to have attracted muslim extremists - there are more western targets there)

As to how should shooters outside the U.S. feel when they travel to the U.S., in comparison: pretty secure, IMHO, as the main threat is against U.S. citizens traveling abroad..... from various sources. Not to many home grown U.S. terrorist threats sitting around planning how to blow up or kidnap, for example, French tourists specifically, when they visit the U.S. (or course everyone can be a victim of normal or random crime, I'm talking about specific nationalities being targeted, for terror attacks)

Actually, now that I think about it, all of this talk has made me decide that I will not attend Area 4 this year, in West Texas, as everyone knows San Angelo, TX is the home of some pretty dangerous LDS compounds and rough elements, and I fear for my security.

[TGO]

Well, well, well, we are indeed a curious bunch!

It is interesting to see all the different viewpoints as to why some of us "top shooters" are choosing to miss this World Shoot. I can only give you my feelings, and will leave it to the others to explain theirs.

It is the issue of security that led me to not make this trip and that decision was made long ago. Obviously I did not try to make a US team, as I did not even attend the qualifiers, which is the best system we have yet used to determmine our teams. Being on the WS team is an honor like no other and it is the pinnacle of achievement for a US shooter. It is with great sadness that I am not on one this year.

Since then other issues have become visible that just re-enforce my earlier decision.

I can assure you none of us are happy about not attending! This will be the first WS I have missed my entire shooting career! World Shoots are almost always fantastic events with great courses of fire and wonderful camaraderie. Of all of those I have attended there were only two that were not up to par, but the others have been excellent. These are the most prestigious events in the practical shooting world. I value my WS wins above all others. That being said, it will be sad to not be there fighting it out, as that is the part I like the best. The battle is more satisfying than the win.

Just how much political BS has to be piled onto a match before the headache outweighs the enjoyment? I was one of the lucky ones who was able to get enough ammo into Ecuador in 2005 to complete the match. Others, Phil in particular, who was screwed by the whole ammo import fiasco, were told their ammo was coming the whole time when in fact it was not. Phil may have won the event had his gun and forced ammo combo worked, but it didn't. The company whose ammo was available for purchase was Armscor, the match sponsor. The ammo "issue" was way out of his control. Sad, Sad, sad. And, now we are hoping to be able to get our ammo in-country again and are relying on the airlines to cut us some slack? Really? And if not, we are expected to purchase ammo by a supplier at the event. Is this Armscor again? Are we serious? We sure have short memories and I for one am unhappy enough to let my absence speak for itself. Even back in 2005, the rumors were that the next World Shoot would have supplied ammo because the venue would be difficult to bring ammo to. I started thinking then that I might have to miss the next one...

If success at an event is in part because you are fortunate enough to get your gear in when others can't, you do not have a fair event.

Fear and anxiety of being in a country hostile to our well being, for a high profile event where your location is well publicized, including exactly when & where you will be can make a person (me) uneasy & paranoid! Hell people, I love shooting these events but at what cost? I will bet nothing is going to happen, and I hope every WS competitor & RO returns home safely. But one time I was playing in-between (the poker game)and bet the pot that I might hit between a two and an ace, the widest spread you can get. It was only 20 bucks but it was 20 bucks I didn't have in my pocket. I drew an ace and lost and thank goodness my friends did not lynch me for the $$. I did learn a lesson, though, and that is that I'm not willing to bet what I can't afford to lose.

This entire match and the process of to-go or not-to-to, makes me even more impressed with our service men and women who go into harms way to protect our country. God Bless them all! Maybe if we sent the Army SF in to keep things tame we could all go and enjoy ourselves? I know some people ...

The whole "someone else is going to keep track of our equipment issue": If this is the case, why not hold the event where our guns would not be a problem? I just do not understand. IPSC has to deal with this in many regions, but we should be able to have the WS in a location where keeping our own equipement is allowed.

I am told Bali is awesome and I would love to visit some day, when it would be less risky.

BTW, Dave is not scared to go battle it out with ANYBODY. He probably wants to be there as much as anyone, maybe just not more than anything.

All of those out there reading this who are not from the US will probably not understand. I hope you can empathize with how hard it is for me to not go. I hate it, it's very bothersome, and it's on my mind a lot.

I wish all of you going a safe event and an enjoyable time.

Rob Leatham

[BritinUSA]

Wow !

Hopefully the absence of so many of the World's best shooters will drive IPSC to be more selective of which country's can host a World Shoot event. I've been to my share of these matches, not as many as Mr. Leatham but the number of problems and their severity seems to get worse every 3 years.

The WS must be held in a country which allows the import of guns/ammunition and allows the competitor to retain access to both for the duration of their stay. Equipment for any sport is a personal and vitally important aspect. Preventing access to equipment or relying on supplies of others is not acceptable.

If this limits the countries that can host a World Shoot, then so be it. Ecuador was a lottery, this does not in any way cheapen the victories of those that won, but it is not acceptable, not in IPSC, not in any sport.

Hopefully it will be Tulsa in 2011.

Thanks for posting, Mr. Leatham.

[Julien Boit]

Many thanks to Rob for his reply.

I fully understand his concerns about security.

I hope too that one day we'll have a WS in a more friendly location (US sounds good to me .)

I've been to South Africa, in 2002 and we were told lost of things about our own safety.

I never felt unsecure during the stay (Ok, the Glock 26 carried IWB might be a clue ! )

I've been to Ecuador in 2005 and I never felt unsecure, but we worried about our ammo arriving at the end of the second day.

I'll be in Bali in October, and I'll work as hard as I can to fully enjoy the honor of being there representing my country.

Whatever the reasons given or not by the top contenders are, my intend was not to start a debate.

It rather was to find some answers to why some of the best pistol shooters in the world decided not to attend the most important match in the World IMO.

[JThompson]

Twas nice of Rob to drop in and set the record, at least as far as he is concerned. I suspect the other top shooters feel much the same.

Julien and the rest of the forum members attending... be careful and good luck.

Best,

JT

[slavex]

good to hear from Rob on this.

As for the ammo issue that so many have brought up. this is going to be an issue no matter where you hold the match. It is simply not easy to fly with the rounds required for a match of this size. If the WS is held at USSA in 2011 it will only benefit American shooters and some Canadians (those close to the border or who decide to the match), for everyone else it will still be a nightmare getting ammo to the match. since the vast majority of us reload, quality factory ammo is a moot point, no matter where the match is held. and while I don't shoot .38 Super or rounds similar, just how easy is it to get factory ammo that is going to work in everyone's Open gun? The simple fact is, there are more shooters in other countries combined, than there is in the USA, there are more regions, and it's their votes that decide where the match is held, although for Bali, there was no competition, no one else offered to host it.

Security, well if you're going to compare terrorist attacks and the number dead, I'm sorry, but the US is more dangerous according to those numbers. England even more so, hell even Japan has more dead from terrorist attacks than Bali. I'm defintely not criticizing peoples choices on this, I almost didn't go for the same reasons. And yes we know that in particular Americans are not too loved in some countries such as Indonesia, but honestly I don't see it being that much of an issue, and I hope my feelings on that are still the same when I get back.

Gun storage, well being from Canada where I can't keep a gun loaded for my own defense, I'm not too worried about it, status quo for me, but I can totally understand the US view on this one.

Cost, well this one doesn't make sense to me at all. Again if the match is in the US it will only benefit the US and maybe Canada (again). For everyone else it's going to be a hugely expensive trip, especially when you consider the exchange rate, it'll probably cost people even more than this match is going to cost Americans, unless the USD nosedives big time in 2011.

just my thoughts.