WorldShoot in Bali : No Rob, No Todd, No Dave, No Phil....?

[Julien Boit]

To clear things a bit about Ecuador, there was NO official ammo. It was locally reloaded ammo or competitor own ammo.

It seems that there were lots of problems importing ammo from overseas, and we even had to pay some "tips" to custom officers to get our ammo released from the custom office.

I heard same stories from German and Swiss shooters.

I quoted this answer from Vince Pinto on the Global Village forum :

However Rob is confused about one very important subject: there was no Official Match Ammo at WSXIV in Ecuador.

When Rob refers to the "ammo import fiasco", that was actually private handloads belonging to American competitors, which Armscor USA offered to ship to Ecuador. As such, this had nothing whatsoever to do with IPSC HQ, and the only involvement by the Match Organisers was in arranging the Import Permit.

However, the private handloads never made it to Ecuador because the subject shipment was held by US authorities in Florida.

In fact, in an effort to assist Ivan Walcott, the Armscor USA representative present in Ecuador (and "blackdragon" at Enos!), I personally called the freight forwarder in Florida to suggest a few solutions (I was a freight forwarder for 25 years, so I know a thing or two about cutting import/export red tape!), but we just couldn't get the US authorities to budge.

On the other hand, WSXV Bali is the first time that we've ever offered Official Match Ammunition, so IPSC HQ (me in particular) and the Match Organisers are officially in the loop. Over 40% of WSXV competitors have ordered OMA, and it will be there, on time, in Bali. Mark my words.

I hope this clarifies the WSXIV Ecuador ammo issue once and for all.

Moderators : Please feel free to edit my post if inappropriate content or link is included.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Julien Boit

[racerba]

...ask how many of the guys that shot the Armscor stuff, that finally did show, liked it...

I shot with the Armscor stuff and found it to be adequate. Then again, I shot PD.

Just for clarification - it was our own ammo that didn't show up, it never left the states. From what I've heard, it was the US authorities fault - not releasing the shipment. Armscor was kind enough to supply us with their ammo for free. The debacle with the shipment did not involve Armscor ammo.

[Chuck Anderson]

For those that don't think the ammo fiasco involved Armscor, you are wrong. Sorry Vince. The ammo that was held up was handloads from the US which never arrived. But the other half of the problem was the ammo that finally did show up from the Phillipines was...less than stellar. I know many people, Phil in particular that had multiple jams on each stage with the ammo from Armscor. Mainly primers that wouldn't go off. I seem to remember there were also some folks that had issues with the Chrono as well, but I can't remember specific individuals on that. I know of at least one competitor who divvied up the ammo that he was able to bring down to other competitors and went home.

As far as there being more competitors from other regions combined than there are in the US, how can you be sure. The last time I checked IPSC based fees on up to 2000 competitors and over. But has never said there are x number of competitors in Canada, x number in SA, x number in England. I can tell you the last time I looked, there were more US competitors than any other one single region. And I can guarantee that if there is a World Shoot in the US and we can get the slots there will be even more. While holding it in a country with a lot of shooters won't fix it for everyone, it will fix it for some. How many IPSC competitors live in Indonesia? Is it more than 100? How about Ecuador, more than 500?

I went to Ecuador in 2005 and wouldn't change it for the world. It was an awesome event and I'm so glad I could go. I wish I could have gone to SA in 2002 but work interfered. I would probably be going to Bali but I just can't afford it, security issue or no security issue.

[pskys2]

This was the year several of us had hoped we could put together a serious U.S. Revolver team, with Jerry and whomever the top 3 other American revolver shooters happened to be. But then they announced it would be Bali, with its enormous expense and obvious security risks, and that pretty much took all the momentum out of the effort......

Oh well, there's always 2011, right??

Yea, a grand Revolver Showing in the year of the Bottom Feeder!

[pskys2]

I heard on the Revo side that there was "NO" .45 ammo in country, my impression was Armscor wasn't even getting any in. So the hassles were so great most not fretting with it.

That ain't true. You can take your own but I know they'll supply Armscor 45CP at the match coz a couple of people I know ordered some.

Weight limits keep .45's to about 300 rounds, don't think that'll cut it at the WS.

[pskys2]

After reading thru the whole thread.

TGO says it all, with class.

Despite what my wife thinks, Family is #1. I doubt if any of us would intentionally do anything to jepordize them or their well being.

My hats off to those who will go, may the IPSC Gods watch over you.

[Rob Boudrie]

Security, well if you're going to compare terrorist attacks and the number dead, I'm sorry, but the US is more dangerous according to those numbers.

With all due respect, you are demonstrating innumeracy and a misunderstanding of what the term "relative risk" means.

The relative risk is "what is the chance of a terrorist attach at the locations I will be visiting?" not "how many dead in the country I am visiting?". The US is much larger than Indonesia, both in terms of population and venues. The risk is further increased in foreign countries when the targets have historically been events or venues hosting international visitors. None of the major US terrorist incidents, to date, have specifically targeted venues with persons visiting from overseas - so the risk in visiting the US is generally the same risk that the resident US population is subject to. Based on news reports, such would not appear to be the case in certain other countries.

To put it in perspective - a 10% increase in the highway fatality rate in a year would result in more deaths than the US has experienced in any one year from a terrorist attack. Omit the 9/11 attacks and that drops to well under 1%. Of all the risks one encounters in the US, terrorism is actually pretty small compared to highway accidents and non-terrorist crime.

[kgunz11]

As for the ammo issue that so many have brought up. this is going to be an issue no matter where you hold the match. It is simply not easy to fly with the rounds required for a match of this size. If the WS is held at USSA in 2011 it will only benefit American shooters and some Canadians (those close to the border or who decide to the match), for everyone else it will still be a nightmare getting ammo to the match. since the vast majority of us reload, quality factory ammo is a moot point, no matter where the match is held. and while I don't shoot .38 Super or rounds similar, just how easy is it to get factory ammo that is going to work in everyone's Open gun?

There is in fact quality factory ammo available. Not all of the top guys are shooting handloads. The AMU uses ammo loaded by Atlanta Arms, as does Dave Sevigny. Maybe more of these other guys should tune their WS guns to run this ammo as I'm sure Atlanta Arms would be glad to step up to the plate and offer ammo. Max Michel Jr. does pretty good with the stuff. So yeah, if a WS did happen here, I think the ammo situation could be resovled amicably. I know Pete Pi Jr. at Cor-Bon ammo and I'm sure his company would also be willing to help out. Is Cor-Bon a less than desireable name?

Any gun that can't run on some of the better commercial ammo needs to be worked on anyway. I know I want my guns to run on whatever I feed them, and thanks to Benny Hill and David Cupp and crew at STI they will and do. Maybe if the WS comes here then the USA can come up with a better source for ammo than some of the other countries have in the past.

I wont get into the whole security issue with the US, we have terrorists here too, foreign and domestic. If you don't think we live in a dangerous country you haven't driven on the wrong side of the tracks of any of the larger cities lately. I wont say you are in any more or less danger here than any where else in the world, but you could certainly get yourself in a pickle by making a wrong turn. Thank God we do have the right to bear arms so we can attempt to protect our persons and our property. At least we CAN return fire anyway!

Thanks Rob for taking the time to come share your thoughts.

[chuckw]

I sent an email to Vince asking him to comment on Lawman's post, and here is his reply:

Lawman is Chuck Anderson, who is actually a very nice guy. He was gracious enough to loan a Glock to the Russian Team in Ecuador, and I really appreciate him stepping up to the plate when I was scrambling around trying to beg, borrow or steal guns for various people who needed them.

Anyway, Chuck probably doesn't realise that the Armscor ammo available in Ecuador was their standard load, most of which was given away, free of charge, to competitors who were affected by the Florida Fiasco. I have no doubt that some of it didn't work properly but, in other cases (e.g. for Brodie McIntosh, the Australian Open Division Champion), it worked flawlessly.

In any case, the Official Match Ammunition available in Bali is the IPSC Load which was formulated in accordance with IPSC requirements and components. The IPSC Load ammo was also tested in numerous countries around the world, and in numerous handguns. In the USA, our primary tester was STI (if my memory serves me correctly, a quantity was also sent to Angus Hobdell).

FWIW.

[BritinUSA]

...I have no doubt that some of it didn't work properly but, in other cases (e.g. for Brodie McIntosh, the Australian Open Division Champion), it worked flawlessly.

Not so sure about this... Here's a posting from the Australian IPSC Forum from the last World Shoot, it was posted by a relative of Brodie's.

So he is shooting factory ammo purchased over there.

The stuff is making around 185 power factor.

Sort of like letting of hand-grenades!!!

He tells me that he can't let the gun run at any speed cos the power just beats you up so bad that the gun gets out of control.

The PF for Open in IPSC is 160, so making 185 is a huge difference.

[chuckw]

Not so sure about this... Here's a posting from the Australian IPSC Forum from the last World Shoot, it was posted by a relative of Brodie's.

Are we gonna analyize and research every word and syllable? I'm guessing "flawlessly" means "no squibs, no split cases, no antsy primers". If the ammo was hot, it was hot, but it worked for some.

[smokshwn]

Not so sure about this... Here's a posting from the Australian IPSC Forum from the last World Shoot, it was posted by a relative of Brodie's.

Are we gonna analyize and research every word and syllable? I'm guessing "flawlessly" means "no squibs, no split cases, no antsy primers". If the ammo was hot, it was hot, but it worked for some.

I am guessing flawlessly is that the ammo and gun combination will work as "flawlessly" (not only reliability but also having a predictable recoil cycle) as it has for the tens of thousands of rounds of practice. To those who are stating that the supplied ammo wasn't a factor, yes this is a very important distinction. No one would expect an olympian to spend years preparing for their sport only to ski on a standard set of skis tuned by uncle ed, or pedal a schwinn beach cruiser. The elite in any sport spend an extraordinary amount of time and effort to prepare themselves and their equipment to operate at its absolute maximum. To expect them not to be hampered by changes to those factors is unreasonable.

[slavex]

yes I realize the difference in size, stability of governments, situations etc. But I've heard far too many people say, "there have too many people killed in Bali", as a reason for not attending this match. When in fact there haven't been. Indonesia has done a pretty damn good job at keeping Bali safe. Yes Americans could be targetted at this match, but I would hope that the security people there realize this and have made preperations based on that knowledge.

it's quite possible the next WS is going to be in another country that might not be the perfect place for North Americans either. We don't represent the majority voting block so it's important that quality venues in relatively safe countries step up and offer to run the next WS. There's no point in Canada doing it as you'd all be stuck with 10 round mags in your guns.

[AikiDale]

Best wishes to the USA team and all other USA shooters in Bali, whoever they are.

In 1972 I picked up a copy of the Tao Te Ching translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English. It is still my favorite translation. Discussions such as this always bring me back to chapter 50:

Between birth and death,

Three in ten are followers of life,

Three in ten are followers of death,

And men just passing from birth to death also number three in ten.

Why is this so?

Because they live their lives on the gross level.

He who knows how to live can walk abroad

Without fear of rhinoceros or tiger.

He will not be wouded in battle.

For in him rhinoceroses can find no place to thrust their horn,

Tigers no place to use their claws,

And weapons no place to pierce.

Why is this so?

Because he has no place for death to enter.

[Vlad]

Im fairly certain the orginal writer of that is now dead.

[DrShooter]

USPSA seems to get blocked from having a WS because, among other things, votes are not weighted by membership. Just like some other world organizations I can think of...

Anyway, how is it that only Bali put in a bid? We weren't invited to put in a bid, or dis-invited? I was a member of USPSA when this all went down, but I obviously wasn't paying attention.

Every time I asked old time members when the WS would come to the US, they just said the WS would never come here. As in "maybe Tulsa is getting ready to bid for a WS" answered by "the US will never host a WS."

Just wondering if this POV is common in other regions.

[AikiDale]

Im fairly certain the orginal writer of that is now dead.

For about 2500 years.... Is there a point I'm missing? Or, just perhaps, did you not read the first line?

[carinab]

Im fairly certain the orginal writer of that is now dead.

[AikiDale]

USPSA seems to get blocked from having a WS because, among other things, votes are not weighted by membership. Just like some other world organizations I can think of...

Anyway, how is it that only Bali put in a bid? We weren't invited to put in a bid, or dis-invited? I was a member of USPSA when this all went down, but I obviously wasn't paying attention.

Every time I asked old time members when the WS would come to the US, they just said the WS would never come here. As in "maybe Tulsa is getting ready to bid for a WS" answered by "the US will never host a WS."

Just wondering if this POV is common in other regions.

Could be wrong, but the WS goes to the country voted upon by the general assembly from among those countries who submit a bid. Any Region may submit a bid. Only Bali wanted it last time around and they 'won' the vote because it was uncontested. USSA may like to host a WS, but first the Regional Director must put in a bid before the bid deadline.

[Jim Norman]

I have heard and I cannot back this up, that Ecuador beat out Canada by the average price of a steak dinner! Canada had actually managed to arrange, so I was told, a special ruling that would have allowed, albeit under some control or another likely, full capacity magazines to allow for the WS to be held.

IPSC walking on this may have doomed Canada to their current levels. Had the WS been held there, Perhaps, they might have leveraged that into freedom?

Then again, as I said, I cannot back this up with solid proof. only hearsay.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

USPSA seems to get blocked from having a WS because, among other things, votes are not weighted by membership. Just like some other world organizations I can think of...

Anyway, how is it that only Bali put in a bid? We weren't invited to put in a bid, or dis-invited? I was a member of USPSA when this all went down, but I obviously wasn't paying attention.

Every time I asked old time members when the WS would come to the US, they just said the WS would never come here. As in "maybe Tulsa is getting ready to bid for a WS" answered by "the US will never host a WS."

Just wondering if this POV is common in other regions.

The US would need to put in a bid to be considered to host. We haven't yet. So, none of that matters. There is no block, there never was anything to block. (There are threads on that which might be more be a more appropriate place to attempt a discussion on the topic.)

[Flexmoney]

Is this thread heading anywhere worth going?

Rob has gave his reasons. Phil has given his reasons (on another forum, IIRC). Dave has his reasons. Todd probably has his reasons, but certainly doesn't owe us any explanations.

I think we have covered the bases.

If there is nothing new, I'd entertain "motions" to close the thread.

- Admin

[larry cazes]

Stick a fork in it. Enough has been said already!

[Flexmoney]

Do I have a second?

[XRe]

Since when have you been one to build consensus???