WorldShoot in Bali : No Rob, No Todd, No Dave, No Phil....?

[Jack Suber]

Thank you for the information, Bobby.

I've also been in contact with a Hazardous Material compliance company out of Miami. They inspect goods and prepare documentation for the exportation of hazardous materials (required by any shipping company). The issue we've run into here is that in order to receive appropriate Department of Transportation paperwork, the hazardous material must be tested by the DOT and deemed safe for shipment. If I were shipping 1K of Remington ammunition, that might be ok... but for custom, hand-loaded ammo, we've run into another roadblock. That person is contacting their boss to see if there's a solution.

Sharyn,

Use commercial packaging - go to a gun range and get boxes from them. Put your ammo inside and seal it. That is how I get by the morons at UPS who tell me that I have to ship in ORM-D packaging. I have never had a problem doing that.

Oh...try talking to the airline first. tell them you are on the official US Team for an international event. See if they will work with you..

Edited August 14, 2008 by Jack Suber

[SA Friday]

The 11lb limit is only an advisory.

Airlines can carry as much as they want, which is why it's always a good idea to ask them.

Not necessarily. In a past life before my current job, I worked air cargo for the AF. The limitations are based on shipping hazardous materials on a passanger aircraft. The limitations are higher than the arbitrary 11 lbs, but this is simply the airlines trying to stay within 49CFR and International shipping regulations (ICAO is the primary rule book for this) for hazardous materials. Shipping ammo by ground is different (and a different set of DoT regulations) than shipping by air. Many ORM-D's become a different hazardous material criteria when shipped by air. For example shipping a corrosive material with an ORM-D (ammo) by ground is ok. Shipping a corrosive material with a 1.4 explosive (ammo by air) is not. I was certified to complete hazardous material declarations for international shipments for about 10 years, and dealt with a lot of explosive shipments. Things changed so much in those 10 years it was very difficult to keep up with the changes. Post 9/11 shipping? forget about it. I would be a babe lost in the woods.

Some may remember a crash in the late 90's of a commercial DC-9 aircraft into the FL everglades (yellow planes, can't remember the name of the company). It was caused by the company loading cargo into the space left over after the baggage. Three small compressed O2 cylinders were loaded into the belly compartment under the flight deck and the cylinders were improperly packaged. The cylinders were not rated for compression after being filled and the valves popped off causing a massive fire. After that crash, thing really tightened down about transporting hazardous materials on passanger aircraft.

I'm not saying it's impossible, and hell I'm praying you all get it figured out. I'm just saying what was once was 1999 could very well be no longer.

[Sharyn]

Sharyn,

Use commercial packaging - go to a gun range and get boxes from them. Put your ammo inside and seal it. That is how I get by the morons at UPS who tell me that I have to ship in ORM-D packaging. I have never had a problem doing that.

Good idea but most likely illegal. I'm trying to figure out why all of this is such a problem and find a resolution, for this World Shoot and others to come.

Oh...try talking to the airline first. tell them you are on the official US Team for an international event. See if they will work with you..

Just for the record, there are four team slots, I came in 5th. Unless there's a Jeff Gillooly incident, I'm not on the official team, just a regular competitor. Shannon and I are travelling together though.

[Jack Suber]

The 11lb limit is only an advisory.

Airlines can carry as much as they want, which is why it's always a good idea to ask them.

Not necessarily. In a past life before my current job, I worked air cargo for the AF. The limitations are based on shipping hazardous materials on a passanger aircraft. The limitations are higher than the arbitrary 11 lbs, but this is simply the airlines trying to stay within 49CFR and International shipping regulations (ICAO is the primary rule book for this) for hazardous materials. Shipping ammo by ground is different (and a different set of DoT regulations) than shipping by air. Many ORM-D's become a different hazardous material criteria when shipped by air. For example shipping a corrosive material with an ORM-D (ammo) by ground is ok. Shipping a corrosive material with a 1.4 explosive (ammo by air) is not. I was certified to complete hazardous material declarations for international shipments for about 10 years, and dealt with a lot of explosive shipments. Things changed so much in those 10 years it was very difficult to keep up with the changes. Post 9/11 shipping? forget about it. I would be a babe lost in the woods.

Some may remember a crash in the late 90's of a commercial DC-9 aircraft into the FL everglades (yellow planes, can't remember the name of the company). It was caused by the company loading cargo into the space left over after the baggage. Three small compressed O2 cylinders were loaded into the belly compartment under the flight deck and the cylinders were improperly packaged. The cylinders were not rated for compression after being filled and the valves popped off causing a massive fire. After that crash, thing really tightened down about transporting hazardous materials on passanger aircraft.

I'm not saying it's impossible, and hell I'm praying you all get it figured out. I'm just saying what was once was 1999 could very well be no longer.

I agree. The restrictions on hazardous materials does change when air-transport is involved. I still think that with ammunition it is arbitrary. The reason I say this is because if air-transport of ammo was so critical, you would think that airlines would carefully catalog all ammo being transported on an aircraft. You would assume that a weight limit or ammo per passenger means an overall weight limit of ammo per aircraft. When travelling to Ecuador for the WS, there were MANY shooters on the plane out of MAI and I knew several that brought their own ammo (because I warned them to do so). I am convinced that American airlines did not tabulate the total amount of ammo being checked on the flight. TSA apparently did not care as long as the ammo was declared. So, this makes me wonder if it is actually an advisory.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Jack Suber

[SharonAnne9x23]

check with the World Health Organization. They classify the health care systems of all countries. I for one will not travel to a country that does not have Level 1 health care. In Africa that limits it to South Africa. Australia is Level 1 as is Japan. No other country in Asia is above Level 3. In Europe it is much better, though Italy is Level 2. The United States of America and Canada are Level 1.

If you are ill or injured while traveling you are at the mercy of the health care system of that particular country. A few years back one of the USA Olympic athletes became ill and was hospitalized behind the Iron Curtain. It was Victor Petrenko who supplied the needles, syringes, bandages and clean sheets. He always traveled with his own supply for just such occasions.

The reality is Third World health care sucks. If you require surgery you are SKREWED!!! The best you can hope for is to get to the airport and hope you live long enough to get to a Level 1 health care country.

Just a thought.

SharonAnne RN

[JKSNIPER]

I had to travel to a conference/training session in Florida a few years back.

This meant taking my clothes as well as a large pelican case with my rifle in it and ammunition.

I had about 500 rounds of .308 ammo in the luggage.

They were going to charge me extra for the weight of the bags as well as an extra bag charge for the gun case.

When the woman at the check in counter asked where I was going with all this stuff I told her about the conference and being in L.E.

She then waived the overweight and extra bag charges for me.

This was flying on southwest airlines and Ithink it was a company wide policy. She did it for me at the counter in NY and at the counter in Tampa I had the same experience.

Contact the airline you're flying ahead of time ad see if they'll give consideration to you for being on a shooting team.

Can't hurt to ask.

JK

[Rob Boudrie]

TSA apparently did not care as long as the ammo was declared.

There is no TSA or other governmental requirement that ammo be declared just because it's in your luggage, though there may be requirements when traveling across the border.

[Carmoney]

Therefore changing airlines and having to recheck our luggage (aka firearms/ammo) out of LAX. Anyone who flies with firearms/ammo frequently will understand the variety of challenges we are destined to face at LAX...

I have flown in and out of LAX with firearms several times in the past several years with absolutely no problem.

[DougCarden]

I just flew into LAX on Monday, and back on Tuesday ...with 4 guns and ammo.....no problems whatsoever.....Done that for the last 5 yrs....dont hesitate to talk to a supervisor and kill them with kindness......

DougC

[davaodoc]

Sharyn,

Use commercial packaging - go to a gun range and get boxes from them. Put your ammo inside and seal it. That is how I get by the morons at UPS who tell me that I have to ship in ORM-D packaging. I have never had a problem doing that.

Good idea but most likely illegal. I'm trying to figure out why all of this is such a problem and find a resolution, for this World Shoot and others to come.

Oh...try talking to the airline first. tell them you are on the official US Team for an international event. See if they will work with you..

Just for the record, there are four team slots, I came in 5th. Unless there's a Jeff Gillooly incident, I'm not on the official team, just a regular competitor. Shannon and I are travelling together though.

Sharyn,

I figured out a way how we might be able to help out.

We could load your ammo here in the Philippines based on your specs, chrono it, and ship it to Bali together with the rest of the Philippine ammo.

In fact the owner of the company that loads for some of the top shooters in the Philippines is in the US right now.

The ammo will be shipped out around August 25 and should arrive in Indonesia by early September

I could email him and sound him off on the idea.

[Sharyn]

FWIW, I have no concerns about firearms in/out of LAX... it's more an ammo issue.

Raul, OMG, just that you offered a solution is awesome! Thank you so much!

Just to see if you have the components available:

My Open load

124gr Montana Gold JHP

8.4gr VihtaVuori N350

OAL 1.235

Win or Fed primers (other brands are fine too)

Shannon's Standard load

180gr Zero JHP

4.8gr Titegroup

OAL 1.185

Win or Fed primers (other brands are fine too)

Please, let me know! Thanks again!

Edited August 15, 2008 by Sharyn

[Jack Suber]

Good idea but most likely illegal. I'm trying to figure out why all of this is such a problem and find a resolution, for this World Shoot and others to come.

Actually, this was what ARMSCOR told us to do in 2005. They sent us a large (1000 rnd) box with individual 50 rounds boxes inside and told us to package our ammo inside, seal it, and ship it back to them. Sure, they say a person has to be "certified" to pack the ammo properly; but I really think its the packaging that they care about. I doubt anyone that would be concerned about it would know what to look for (i.e. is this factory ammo or reloads). I think that is why Armscor went the way they did in 2005.

Just to give you an idea of what airlines know - in 2002 when I was going to Ecuador, American Airlines told me that I had to have the ammo in "factory" packaging. I put mine (and my friends ammo) in plastic Dillon boxes, put one of my Lightning Bullets labels on the boxes, and that was it. As a matter of fact, the TSA guy checking our guns and ammo commented..."Lightning Bullets, cool boxes. I bet you could re-use them." Shipped my nationals ammo to Tulsa that way, too. UPS asked if it was ammo and I said yes. Nothing after that.

[Flexmoney]

Anybody going should get a letter from the Section Coordinator, stating that they are representing their section.

Cause...you really are.

[Jack Suber]

Anybody going should get a letter from the Section Coordinator, stating that they are representing their section.

Cause...you really are.

Hey. It might work. You never know...

[Flexmoney]

Just to give you an idea of what airlines know - in 2002 when I was going to Ecuador, American Airlines told me that I had to have the ammo in "factory" packaging. I put mine (and my friends ammo) in plastic Dillon boxes, put one of my Lightning Bullets labels on the boxes, and that was it. As a matter of fact, the TSA guy checking our guns and ammo commented..."Lightning Bullets, cool boxes. I bet you could re-use them." Shipped my nationals ammo to Tulsa that way, too. UPS asked if it was ammo and I said yes. Nothing after that.

I've done the same when flying. Print up "custom labels" using address labels, then I use them to seal the boxes.

[davaodoc]

FWIW, I have no concerns about firearms in/out of LAX... it's more an ammo issue.

Raul, OMG, just that you offered a solution is awesome! Thank you so much!

Just to see if you have the components available:

My Open load

124gr Montana Gold JHP

8.4gr VihtaVuori N350

OAL 1.235

Win or Fed primers (other brands are fine too)

Shannon's Standard load

180gr Zero JHP

4.8gr Titegroup

OAL 1.185

Win or Fed primers (other brands are fine too)

Please, let me know! Thanks again!

emailed the guy already. will get an answer in a short while. you're welcome

[Sharyn]

I forgot a very important detail... oops!

Starline .38 Super Comp

Thanks again!

[davaodoc]

I forgot a very important detail... oops!

Starline .38 Super Comp

Thanks again!

Hi Sharyn,

sent you a PM

Raul

[Angus Hobdell]

So far I have not had any of the Armscor ammo to test, I called for a friend to get some but did not recive a reply.

I have no idea if they even have any of the IPSC loads in the USA.

All concerned should ring Armscor in Nevada (775) 537-1444

I myself have formulated a 9mm Minor load using 55g Bullets which means I can easily take 1000 pieces under the 11lb rule.

little warm to shoot and very high velocity but at least i will have enough ammo.

[Micah]

I myself have formulated a 9mm Minor load using 55g Bullets which means I can easily take 1000 pieces under the 11lb rule.

little warm to shoot and very high velocity but at least i will have enough ammo.

A little warm? Jeeze Angus, you truly are a man's man

[JThompson]

No kidding, somewhere around 2400fps for minor.

[Chris Keen]

If my math is correct thats about 2272 fps ????

So ... the open guns wont be the only ones making peoples teeth hurt!

[JThompson]

If my math is correct thats about 2272 fps ????

So ... the open guns wont be the only ones making peoples teeth hurt!

Add the safety factor in to make sure and you are close to 2400 I bet. That's going to be a bit snappy,

[rgkeller]

So far I have not had any of the Armscor ammo to test, I called for a friend to get some but did not recive a reply.

Gee, and Vince Pinto said that you were one of the "testers."

[chuckw]

Gee, and Vince Pinto said that you were one of the "testers."

If you read post #59 in this thread he only said "In the USA, our primary tester was STI (if my memory serves me correctly, a quantity was also sent to Angus Hobdell)". Maybe you can check with STI now?