Ben Stoeger

[DyNo!]

Ben, have you ever fired multiple Elites at one time?

Of course!

Now that I want to see - never done it myself...

[Ben Stoeger]

I found myself at the range today… as I usually do on holidays. I love how empty the place is.

I worked on shooting like I don’t give a F#^$ today. Pretty much just accepting a lot less sight picture to make the same shots, especially at closer ranges.

Its just like Robbie told me.. “If you aren’t fast, it doesn’t matter how accurate you are”.

Today’s practice felt good to me. I am liking my sights hitting top of post. I set one target at about 30 yards, and had a couple 15ish yard plates. I was easily able to slay them with the sight set up. I think I had one extra on the plates all day.

[Ben Stoeger]

I found myself going to the range this morning… and shooting about 400 rounds. I worked some basic drills, nothing major.

I went home, and loaded ammo.

Then I found myself going to a different range, and practicing again… and shooting another couple hundred rounds.

Here is the video of my first two runs of the day working on field course type stuff. I am going for that fast shooting aggressive first run. I was semi happy with my first runs. I felt I was on target and not shooting quite soon enough though.

I did a variation of “Triple Six” today that I found quite a lot more challenging than the original drill.

For those that don’t know, the original drill consists of one target. You fire 3 strings of 6 shots each. You shoot from 7, 15, and 25 yards… firing 6 shots into the target as quickly as you can. You add .1 second for every point you drop.

Ok, simple enough.

I decided to do the same drill, but use 3 targets. Fire 2 shots into each target during each string. Not a big variation, just working some target transition into it. I thought it was much tougher.

Up close, I tend to want to drag the gun across the target as I am shooting, dropping points that way. At distance, you have to aim hard during each transition.

[waxman]

Today’s practice felt good to me. I am liking my sights hitting top of post. I set one target at about 30 yards, and had a couple 15ish yard plates. I was easily able to slay them with the sight set up. I think I had one extra on the plates all day.

Ben could you expand on this? How did you do it before?Thanks

[MemphisMechanic]

Well, the only other commonly accepted method is a six o'clock hold. Most guns setup like that are about 4 inches high. At 25 yds, you hold the sights on the bottom of the 8" steel plate, which is a very precise point. The gun then puts a round dead-center on the plate. Make sense?

Sevigny Competition sights for Glocks are setup like this, assuming 147gr ammo. Problem is that a lot of Glock shooters are unaware of that little detail, and it gives them fits at distance.

[Ben Stoeger]

Practice has been interesting lately.

By some measures, I am shooting poorly. My shooting on certain drills is slow and choppy. On other drills, I am the best I have ever been.

I am thinking the very hot loads I am practicing with now have something to do with the choppiness. On the upside, my match load feels very soft by comparison. That should certainly help on match day.

I think some bill drills are in order for me to get in tune with my loads.

What effect do you guys see different loads having on your shooting? None? Lots?

[lugnut]

I'm just a lowly B shooter but different loads certainly have an effect on me. Not sure if it's timing or what. I train and compete with the same loads always.

[Paul Burtchell]

Big difference.

[Ben Stoeger]

Big difference.

How big? Can you quantify it?

I FEEL a difference but it is tough to put numbers to it.

[Paul Burtchell]

Strictly feel. I really need to do some drills with the timer to see if it is just perception. There feels to be a large difference in my splits between minor and major loads. Minor load 3.5 grains Titegroup with 180grain MG CMJ for IDPA vs. 4.7 grains for major for USPSA. This is in a 5" 1911. It feels like it is taking alot longer time to realign the sights, with the major load.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Paul Burtchell

[Jake Di Vita]

The worse your technique, the more you will probably notice accuracy issues. The better your technique, the less it really matters. Reason being that good technique usually revolves around the ability to stabilize the gun during recoil.

I can see it affecting the perception of time as well, but I would say hotter loads don't have any measurable influence on your ability to pull the trigger quickly.

It wouldn't be a stretch to say a shooter with less than ideal technique would shoot slower with hotter loads because of the added gun movement.

I doubt it really has much of an effect on you.

[Paul Burtchell]

I think my technique is being questioned??

[CHA-LEE]

This may be a stupid question but why would you practice with a different load in practice verses what you shoot in a match? Practice with what you compete with. Why add an unneeded variable to your shooting?

I use to see this all the time with my last hobby. People would practice with different equipment that made their stuff work “differently” than their racing equipment simply because it was cheaper. But then when they would switch over to using their racing equipment they would struggle because it was so much different than their “Practice” stuff.

I think that the rounds you shoot is a very important aspect to what you burn in as the “Normal” timing of things, what you feel, what you see, etc. To me, switching to a different practice load that is either harder or softer shooting than your competition stuff would be as detrimental as switching recoil springs arbitrarily for no good reason. Can you shoot different loads for practice? Sure. Does it go bang when you pull the trigger? Sure. But what you really need to ask yourself is if running a different load in practice allows you to optimize your shooting or does it add another dimension of complexity. I see it as no different than drawing, reloading, moving in/out of a shooting position or transitioning between targets. The common goal is to optimize the process and eliminate as many variables as possible. What ammo you shoot should be treated the same way.

[Ben Stoeger]

This may be a stupid question but why would you practice with a different load in practice verses what you shoot in a match? Practice with what you compete with. Why add an unneeded variable to your shooting?

Because I am not made of $$$$. No need to preach to me about it, believe me I know. If I had the means to do something about it I would.

[lugnut]

This may be a stupid question but why would you practice with a different load in practice verses what you shoot in a match? Practice with what you compete with. Why add an unneeded variable to your shooting?

Because I am not made of $$. No need to preach to me about it, believe me I know. If I had the means to do something about it I would.

You didn't post that cost was an issue Ben... just that your practice loads were hot and your match loads were soft.

[Ben Stoeger]

This may be a stupid question but why would you practice with a different load in practice verses what you shoot in a match? Practice with what you compete with. Why add an unneeded variable to your shooting?

Because I am not made of $$. No need to preach to me about it, believe me I know. If I had the means to do something about it I would.

You didn't post that cost was an issue Ben... just that your practice loads were hot and your match loads were soft.

So? The specific discussion I was attempting to provoke had to do with shooting different loads. Some dude giving me a 2 paragraph lecture about what I should be doing isn't neccecary or relavant. I think shooting different loads is good fodder for conversation. It would be nice if we could have a conversation about that without dudes talking down or thinking I would be dumb enough to shoot different loads for no good reason.

Close observers will note that I have made no secret of the fact my match load is Atlanta arms... My practice load is moly coated reloads. Untill I win the lottery, that will be how it stays.

[ebg3]

I'm shooting home-cast bullets for practice and local matches and switching to jacketed for majors. It's really surprising how different the gun acts between the two loads and how it gets my timing off. When comparing my usual drills, it takes me 200-250rds to start getting used to the other load. I don't think I can quantify the difference between jacketed and cast other than it takes most of a practice session to start getting used to the feel. I wish I could afford to practice with my match load but jacketed bullets are just too expensive.

EG

[Flyin40]

This may be a stupid question but why would you practice with a different load in practice verses what you shoot in a match? Practice with what you compete with. Why add an unneeded variable to your shooting?

Because I am not made of $$. No need to preach to me about it, believe me I know. If I had the means to do something about it I would.

You didn't post that cost was an issue Ben... just that your practice loads were hot and your match loads were soft.

So? The specific discussion I was attempting to provoke had to do with shooting different loads. Some dude giving me a 2 paragraph lecture about what I should be doing isn't neccecary or relavant. I think shooting different loads is good fodder for conversation. It would be nice if we could have a conversation about that without dudes talking down or thinking I would be dumb enough to shoot different loads for no good reason.

Close observers will note that I have made no secret of the fact my match load is Atlanta arms... My practice load is moly coated reloads. Untill I win the lottery, that will be how it stays.

Lecture Your to funny Ben. Not sure if I like reading your range diary for its shooting content or humor. Always can count on you to set them straight.

Do you shoot your practice loads then go to a match and shoot your match loads?? Or do you shoot your match loads in a practice session before your match?

Flyin

[Jadeslade]

Practice has been interesting lately.

By some measures, I am shooting poorly. My shooting on certain drills is slow and choppy. On other drills, I am the best I have ever been.

I am thinking the very hot loads I am practicing with now have something to do with the choppiness. On the upside, my match load feels very soft by comparison. That should certainly help on match day.

I think some bill drills are in order for me to get in tune with my loads.

What effect do you guys see different loads having on your shooting? None? Lots?

I use Atlanta Arms in matches, too, the blue box lately. The bullets are changed, but the discussion is the loads so-last three matches with AAA blue box the chrono gave me 133, 133,and 135-this is in a Glock 34, Vanek trigger. Practicing with American Eagle 124gr which has power factor somewhere in the 142 range I notice faster reset (or faster cycling, or what I call "more snappy") I notice this more like on a plate rack at 15 yds or anything where I am timing the shooting to try and go faster, like steel steel paper paper steel. So when I go back to the match ammo, it feels smoother, but it takes a mag or two to get the feel back.

[lugnut]

So? The specific discussion I was attempting to provoke had to do with shooting different loads. Some dude giving me a 2 paragraph lecture about what I should be doing isn't neccecary or relavant. I think shooting different loads is good fodder for conversation. It would be nice if we could have a conversation about that without dudes talking down or thinking I would be dumb enough to shoot different loads for no good reason.

Close observers will note that I have made no secret of the fact my match load is Atlanta arms... My practice load is moly coated reloads. Untill I win the lottery, that will be how it stays.

Sorry- I have recently started reading your thread. For the conversation: IMO any kind of change will take some adjustment for me and I try to eliminate as much change as I can. Just the feel or sound of a different load can distract me from my subconscious world when I'm shooting. At your level I'm sure you can adjust quickly but then again, even the slightest variation can have an impact and you are looking for every .01 of sec. I have to imagine you should be able to get a close recipe to the Atlanta Arms match ammo you use.... that would me my plan until I won the lottery. I use my W231 with plated Berrys for most practice and N320 with MG for some matches and the loads feel VERY similar to me. I'd be surprised if you couldn't get your moly loads close to your match loads... maybe you've already done this.

[Ben Stoeger]

Do you shoot your practice loads then go to a match and shoot your match loads?? Or do you shoot your match loads in a practice session before your match?

I tend to shoot a bit of match stuff right before a match.. almost always if it is a big match.

[Ben Stoeger]

I guess I should speak on this more.

I have struggled with the idea of loads for the last year. My days were simpler when I just shot White box all the time.. But at 24 bucks a box that just isn’t going to happen any more.

Last year I started shooting 3.2 grains of titegroup under a 147 moly. When I was dialed in for 115 grain white box, the 3.2 load felt a bit softer than the Atlanta Arms stuff, but I didn’t think it would matter. After a few months of loading and practice I got REALLY dialed in on the 3.2 load. I was able to shoot it really quickly.

Then major matches rolled along and something just didn’t feel right. So I bumped my practice load to 3.4 grains. (now I am using solo 1000), This load still didn’t feel as stiff as Atlanta arms, but it was closer. At the end of the year I still wasn’t happy.. So I switched to 130 grain bullets and 4.0 grains of powder.

This load feels much hotter than Atlanta arms stuff. I haven’t shot a match yet so I guess we will see what happens.

[Ben Stoeger]

So? The specific discussion I was attempting to provoke had to do with shooting different loads. Some dude giving me a 2 paragraph lecture about what I should be doing isn't neccecary or relavant. I think shooting different loads is good fodder for conversation. It would be nice if we could have a conversation about that without dudes talking down or thinking I would be dumb enough to shoot different loads for no good reason.

Close observers will note that I have made no secret of the fact my match load is Atlanta arms... My practice load is moly coated reloads. Untill I win the lottery, that will be how it stays.

Sorry- I have recently started reading your thread. For the conversation: IMO any kind of change will take some adjustment for me and I try to eliminate as much change as I can. Just the feel or sound of a different load can distract me from my subconscious world when I'm shooting. At your level I'm sure you can adjust quickly but then again, even the slightest variation can have an impact and you are looking for every .01 of sec. I have to imagine you should be able to get a close recipe to the Atlanta Arms match ammo you use.... that would me my plan until I won the lottery. I use my W231 with plated Berrys for most practice and N320 with MG for some matches and the loads feel VERY similar to me. I'd be surprised if you couldn't get your moly loads close to your match loads... maybe you've already done this.

No need to apologize at all. Its hard to communicate online sometimes. I am thinking that the amount of shooting I do doesn't really work in my favor to help me adjust. If I shoot 5k rounds over the course of 6 weeks between matches (not uncommon) then I find it tough to step up loads and stil shoot like a madman.

[jar]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why not shoot your reloads in matches as well?

[Shibby]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why not shoot your reloads in matches as well?

That's what I decided to do. I was kind of in the same boat as Ben. I shot molys all year in practice (due to cost), with the idea to switch to jacketed once the big matches rolled around. When it came time to switch to the jacketed I just didn't feel comfortable with them, and I thought why switch to jacketed when things have gone well with the molys. So I stuck with the molys and have been satisfied with the results. My only concern is the smoke will get me on a stage one day.

Edited to add:

If I could find a moly load that would perform exactly like a jacketed load at 130-135 PF I would use the moly load to practice and the jacketed load for matches. I haven't found one yet but I'm still searching.

But since I couldn't find one the best way for me to solve the problem was to take out the variable of the jacketed load, but I don't think that's the ideal solution. I do believe I'm on borrowed time shooting major matches with moly bullets.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Shibby