Unbagging/Bagging of Firearms at the Car During 3 Gun Matches

[Religious Shooter]

I was getting beat up on another thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=64334&hl=

When I told people that it is common to unbag/bag long guns at the car... I could swear I could hear crickets.

So I wanted to put a question to the people here who actually participate in 3 Gun matches. How many of you unbag/bag long guns at the car... Pistols (maybe)... during a match? USPSA or IMGA varient or other?

[uscbigdawg]

I'm sure I'll be garnered a hypocrite in some way, but I bag and unbag long guns in the truck/trunk of the car at 3-Gun matches. Case in point is the SMM3G where we generally drive to an area that'll cover 3-4 bays and go to the car as needed to swap out gear, re-fit and go to the next stage.

The hypocritical part comes with the pistol. I bag and unbag it in the safe area and think that should be the case.

Haven't had a problem yet and consider myself well above the mean when it comes to safety and holding others to be safe. I constantly have debates with RM's on muzzle directions of long guns. I'm a muzzle down guy. Not 'cause it looks cool, but as a medic, I can tape your foot back together...I don't have enough tape to put your (or someone else's) head back together.

Rich

[bigsaxdog]

i can never figure the "muzzle-up" thing either......

[mpeltier]

Yeah whats up with the muzzle up thing. The pistol is always muzzle down right? Nothing wrong with uncasing firearms at your vehicle IMHO. It should be designated as a safe area IE no loading or handling of loose ammo at vehicles, except to place your ammo in your cart if you are using one.

[Chuck Anderson]

I think the difference may come because not everyone has cases for their long guns. It is an accepted carry position to carry the long guns, muzzle up. It is not to do so with a pistol.

[TRUBL]

Wow!!...and yes, in the other thread, the rules clear for the handgun. And if you play the game, you play by the rules, you agree to it, no matter how smart or dumb you think they are.....so unbagging hangun at car, even in thebelt is a no, no..and thats the bottom line.....at a USPSA pistol match OR USPSA multi-gun match (FYI).

NOW....the rifle and shotgun....again we are talking USPSA, as opposed to those 'outlaw' matches. Look at the rifle rules 5.2, you basically would be able to unbag at the car...lay the rifle out with no DQ. They go on to say the rifle can be carried with a sling as well. I can only assume that you can do the same with the shotgun....but look at the rules to be sure. Ok, so the senario is: I come the match...grab my pistol bag (pistol in bag), put on my belt....grab my rifle case, open it, grab the rifle, sling it over my shoulder....go to the safety area, open my pistol bag....put pistol in holster....go to stage.....No DQ'able offense.

Bottom line (again)......at a USPSA match, when you play the game....you agree to play by the rules....no matter how smart or dumb you think they are. And there really is no debate there.

Now, I don't do USPSA, so I can say it's pretty interesting to see that one gun (or 2) could be unbagged at the car.....but the other one, well, they just don't trust you to handle that one anywhere but in a safety area or on the line. Yeah, it can be confusing

[Scout454]

I shoot 20 or so 3gun matches a year - including 6 to 8 majors. At every IMGA/Outlaw match, we unbag handguns and holster at the truck. Rifles and shotguns either get left in the bags for convenience, unbagged and slung or unbagged and put on the cart. At the few USPSA matches I shoot, handguns are unbagged at the safe area. Rifles and shotguns at the truck.

[BBoyd]

good topic

I have a cart and my long arms ride, muzzle down and when you read posted rules, they will say all long arms need to be carried muzzle up. I unbag my long arms at the car trunk, and I have unbagged my pistol there, when I first arrive for the day. If I am in doubt about the cart carry I usually email the match director first and ask them if carrying in a cart, muzzle down is OK....I've never been told no.

some ranges prefer that long arms are kept muzzle down since they never want a round to leave the range and have posted rules which state that.

Chamber flags....carrying your pistol hammer down, slide forward, mag out, holstered is OK, but long arms have to have a chamber flag, isn't hammer down bolt forward just as safe? I usually have lost or misplaced my chamber flag by about the 3rd or 4th stage since I've set it down to load, or stuck it in one of my pockets, or dropped it somewhere.

[kurtm]

I am always holstered by the time I get to the range with the pistol, the only thing I need is a place to UNLOAD so I can have an empty pistol for the match that day, Shotgun isn't bagged as it sits behind the seat w/ a tube full of slugs, so once again a "unload" area would be great. Rifle..well just the same. Now once I am there I "bag" them at the car ( once unloaded) and already have a holstered pistol so I guess I bag and unbag at the car, just the reverse order of what you are posting about. The only two ranges I don't do this at is D.P.M.S. ( for the pistol, it still needs to be unloaded thought) and Ft.Benning ( due to strick Govment regs.) kurtm

[AlamoShooter]

Yeah whats up with the muzzle up thing. The pistol is always muzzle down right? Nothing wrong with uncasing firearms at your vehicle IMHO. It should be designated as a safe area IE no loading or handling of loose ammo at vehicles, except to place your ammo in your cart if you are using one.

The fact is "I don't know Much , if not Nothing" I have some real questions , and I am not trying to take a side or stir things up ....But = this makes me thing about the problem I saw at our range years ago. - How ? and what do you do about the guy that wants to check his scope at the truck? Check his mags to make sure they drop? See if his bolt is free and closes completely by racking it a few time? Check his mount with the shotgun.

What is OK and What is Not? I know the Thread says " Bag and Un-Bagging" But what about the guys that drop the hammer to store the gun?

And the ammo handling at the truck. Every one loads mag at the truck don't they?

What I have to do when I see someone head for the trunk or the their Truck is turn and look another direction.

The three gun I do is not the same, But it is still three gun

[outerlimits]

uspsa and outlaw 3 gun the same fer me. drive truck to nearest stage, unbag shotgun, insert chamber flag, place in cart. rifle, unbag, place chamber flag and place into cart. pistol...go to safe area, unbag and place in holster. now, as the match goes on, and we start changing gear/weapons, it gets a bit messy.

[mpeltier]

Those are good questions, i would use language like, "Vehicles are considered a safe area for the purposes of Un-bagging and bagging of firearms only, at no time shall loose ammo be handled or magazines inserted. All other handling of firearms is to be conducted at designated Safety areas as layed out by the match director.

I never load up mags at the truck, I am sure some do. I think having to lug all my guns to a safe are to un-bag is more of a inconvenience than loading mags somewhere else.

My observations have been that a large portion of competitors safely un-bag at their vehicles now, even if it is "against the rules". I have yet to witness an AD in the parking lot. Most ranges I have been to have a big sign out front that sais "No Loaded Firearms Beyond this point" and are thus "cold" ranges. I am not sure of the origins of cold ranges/safety areas, but as i recall at the beginning development of this sport the ranges were hot, and thus would be considerably more problematic as to unbagging firearms at vehicles.

Whatever is decided upon and enforced it is all good as I always feel safety is first and foremost. :popcorn1:

Edited April 30, 2008 by mpeltier

[Jim Norman]

I like this:

Those are good questions, i would use language like, "Vehicles are considered a safe area for the purposes of Un-bagging and bagging of firearms only, at no time ashall loose ammo be handled or magazines inserted. All other handling of firearms is to be conducted at designated Safety areas as layed out by the match director.

I am also a BIG fan of Muzzle Down Carry as well as muzzle down starts. I REALLY REALLY do not like a "Port Arms" start where we have a loaded rifle pointed up at about 45 degrees. Oops! Round lands 4 miles away in other than a designated bullet impact area. Not a good thing.

Jim

Edited April 30, 2008 by Jim Norman

[cking]

I a big fan of chamber flags because it allows a quick visual inspection at a distance. Even for the pistols during a 3gun match. We always kept a bag of them for sale, $5 for 3 flags. What happens at the trunk of the car has always been iffy. Rule being empty guns only on the range, should have the flags in when you arrive. Muzzle up or down, as the carts people use vary. Always start at low ready. When loading keep gun pointed down range. When staging guns start with start with one most down range, when finished unload flag them, then hand to the RO and work your way back to each weapon flagging as you go. With three guns, RO carries one, RO/score keeper carries the second, you carry the third and walk them all back to your cart.

Somebody said they melt, I haven't had any melt yet, but I use the ones skinny yellows ones from brownell

[JKSNIPER]

Been to a lot of sniper matches as well as shooting highpower rifle again.

Rules change from range to range and type of competition (Game to game).

When going to another range/game....I don't beat my head against the safety rules.....I follow them.

You want muzzle up? Fine I carry the rifle muzzle up.

You want it to stay in a drag bag or case until I reach the firing line? O-K.

You want Open Bolt Indicators/Empty Chamber Indicators in the rifle until on the line and getting ready to shoot? No problem.

There are reasons for every range to have their rules. I have heard of A.D. and SEEN A.D. s happen from ,supposedly, "professionals".

I am a BIG proponent of safety in training and anyone that wants to read some sad and sobering stats can go to the NTOAs website and click on their resource library link and their officer training deaths pages. Many instances of careless weapons handling that have resulted in fatalities are present there.

If maybe I think I have a better way to carry/case weapons or I want to make an area such as vehicle areas declared a safe zone?

I go to the match guy AFTER its all over and give him my .02 on my ideas for improvement.

But consider that........Maybe he don't give a fudge because this is the way they've been doing it since Christ was a corporal and they ain't gonna change it just because the great and powerful OZ suggested it.

When you go play in someone elses sandbox....you play by their rules.

and thats my .02 if you give a fudgeicle. (lol)

JK

[AikiDale]

.

Rules change from range to range and type of competition (Game to game).

When going to another range/game....I don't beat my head against the safety rules.....I follow them.

You want muzzle up? Fine I carry the rifle muzzle up.

You want it to stay in a drag bag or case until I reach the firing line? O-K.

You want Open Bolt Indicators/Empty Chamber Indicators in the rifle until on the line and getting ready to shoot? No problem.

That's the ticket!

There is no 'One True' set of rules (well, unless we are talking about my rules of course). People who have ranges have rules to help keep people safe and to avoid litigation. If you have to pay attention to the rules because they are different then you are paying attention to the rules. Engaging in dogma debates outside the drinking establishment is a waste of time.

[racerba]

Engaging in dogma debates outside the drinking establishment is a waste of time.

[jobob]

.

Rules change from range to range and type of competition (Game to game).

When going to another range/game....I don't beat my head against the safety rules.....I follow them.

You want muzzle up? Fine I carry the rifle muzzle up.

You want it to stay in a drag bag or case until I reach the firing line? O-K.

You want Open Bolt Indicators/Empty Chamber Indicators in the rifle until on the line and getting ready to shoot? No problem.

That's the ticket!

There is no 'One True' set of rules (well, unless we are talking about my rules of course). People who have ranges have rules to help keep people safe and to avoid litigation. If you have to pay attention to the rules because they are different then you are paying attention to the rules. Engaging in dogma debates outside the drinking establishment is a waste of time.

Good discussion, but this is the best comment yet! And I second the !

[SinistralRifleman]

I generally take my carry pistol off in the vehicle. Unload it in the vehicle if that's the gun I'm going to shoot. If not, the pistol I am using is already in a holster on a belt in the vehicle that I put on at the vehicle. Long guns are unloaded in a double long gun case, uncase them as necessary at the stages.

I'm with Kurt on the idea there needs to be a set procedure for people to unload their carry guns when they get to the range. I do it in the vehicle as I don't want a dozen people telling me "THIS IS A COLD RANGE" as I walk to the safety area to unload.

[JKSNIPER]

Guys,

Thank you for the supportive comments.

I'm kind of the "Safety Nazi" in my dept.

I say follow the rules because at the last sniper comp. I was at there were not one but two A.D.s on the firing line by supposed professionals.

There were no injuries but this was at a range where there were not supposed to be any loaded weapons until the command to load was given and all rifles were required to have OBI in place.

Unknown just what happened to cause this as my relay was done shooting and I was off the firing line behind my vehicle when it occurred.

I've been told there are 2 kinds of people in highpower rifle.

Those that have crossfired in competition and those that are going to ........and thats ok since all that happens is some embarassment and a lot of kidding of the shooter in question.

I think when talking about safety we should say a variation of that:

There are 2 kinds of people on the range those that realize that an accident can happen to anyone and those that are an accident waiting to happen.

As soon as we start thinking that we're too professional or good for this to happen to us is when disaster hits.

Ok I'm off the safety soapbox now.

JK

[racerba]

As soon as we start thinking that we're too professional or good for this to happen to us is when disaster hits.

Remember this quote (or something along that line):

"I am the only one in this room professional enough to handle a .40..." BANG

[Chris]

In most cases, the long gun stages will have a table where you can unbag and preload. At least they did at SMM3G.

I like to leave my guns in the case anyway so they don't get full of dust while I'm waiting for my turn.