konkapot Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 From time to time there are discussions as to the relative shooting skills of the "typical" police officer as compared to the "typical" USPSA shooter. I believe it was Mr. Avery who said that earning your "B" card was akin to a blackbelt. Many of the LE shooters in USPSA can hardly be called "typical." Seeklander, Strader, Yong Lee, etc come to mind. So check this out. I work at a high-volume Federal LE training center. We get lots and lots of students, from ALL walks of life. I'm working with a small group doing some very simple dryfire drills. This allows them some gun handling time, and allows me a chance to see Who's Who and What's What. One of the trainees is.....different. He's performing the drill, but is definately in a different dimension than the others. He's smooth, fluid, and competent. So I watch him out of the corner of my eye while I work with folks who are on the other end of the spectrum. We move on to reloads. This trainee does a perfect, precise, Travis Tomasie-style reload. If you search Google for "reload" the first hit is the Travis video...the second hit would be this guy's reload. I chat with him later and inquire as to his shooting pedigree. He says that he's a USPSA shooter....Open...C Class. He was reasonable, polite, and articulate. We chat for a bit about shooting, and have a pleasant exchange. I go home and look him up. Yup, C Open. Hasn't shot USPSA for about 7 months. I have had the opportunity to watch him shoot every day for the past three weeks. As a C class Open shooter, shooting a factory Sig pistol, in a moderate to high stress environment, in a class of about 85% police officers, he absolutely completely totally unequivocally DOMINATES his fellow trainees. If a drill requires you to be fast, he's done first. If you need to be accurate........well, he's the first trainee in a long time to shoot 100% on the qual course. Oh....and he did it on his FIRST attempt. As a C Open shooter. With a factory gun. And major pf ammo. In stark contract to the "I already know how to shoot" guys and the "I was a cop for 4 years so...." and the "Well, that's not how I'm used to reloading" this guy is helpful, polite, eager to learn, and receptive to new things. He helps his fellow trainees, contributes to the workload, and is an all around model trainee. This doesn't end the debate, but struck me as interesting. FY42385 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Reloads like Tomasie....and he is a C shooter Keep an eye on him....he May be a sandbagger Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I go home and look him up. Yup, C Open. Hasn't shot USPSA for about 7 months. You mean he hasn't shot a classifier for about 7 months? Seriously, thanks for sharing this! Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Great story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 congratulations on your Skill of observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 TT style reloads 100% qual. Helping fellow trainees ........... Maybe this guy should be a TRAINER instead of a TRAINEE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 John, I think your observation is 100% on the mark. I get to see quite a few LE shooters as an instructor and some of them scare me to death. I would be really surprised if any C-class shooter scared me on the line and I would expect them to shoot better than almost all the folks that show up for LE firearms training. That's not a dig on the LE folks, it's just a reality that the typical USPSA shooter has refined his techniques to a much higher level and has overall gun handling skills far superior to the average cop....even someone that only shoots one match a month and never practices shoots a heck of a lot more than the typical cop does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 The other thing that stands out....that I really wasn't able to articulate very well, is that he's a "quiet professional." Had I not asked him about his shooting background, he wouldn't have mentioned it. As I found out later...not from him...he was a police officer....and was a firearms instructor before he came here. My work environment is FULL of self promoters, and that's one of the reasons why this guy stands out so much....he's not. He's just takin' care of business. Regardless of what discipline....I feel that an instructor who competes in SOMETHING is always learning......and never forgets what it's like to struggle at something...makes a better instructor. FY42385 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergie Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I'll share a story with you on a similar topic. We have a police officer who shot quite a bit with us a few years back. He is a Police Firearms instructor. His 2 young (13-16 yrs old) daughters also shot USPSA with us. The daughters became quite good and I think were both C class. One day the Police officers were qualifying and the 2 daughters happened to be at the range with dad. The 2 girls went through the same qualifying drill that the cops did. When it came to the final results, the 2 girls were 1st and 2nd with all the cops following behind. This is a true story. Sad but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm3gnr Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I was at a Police three gun benefit, with 4 other USPSA shooters. Ranging from C to M class. The first talk we started hearing on our squad after shooting the first stage was, I didn't know they where going to invite some professional shooters out to this match. We of course did not say much and we where looking around for the pro shooters that was supposed to be at this match. On the shotgun stage, ( Stage 3), The head Swat officer started asking us some questions about our shooting experience. He also stated that what we where doing and how we where shooting could not benefit them any. I did not argue at all, because I know nothing of their training. What I did mention was that there could be something learned at which the speed and accuracy that we where taking down targets compared to the paid officers. It was clear to see that our group did not need a rifle rest at 80yd poppers, could shoot on the move, and our targets accusistion, once the decision was made to shoot, was much faster and accurate. Please do not understand this as any bad talk of any type of law enforcement anywhere at all. I know many that are excellent at staying alive in harms way and very good competitors as well. Most police officers I talk to feel that their gun is another tool on their belt such as cuffs or a radio. Most state that they practice once or twice a year. I feel that participating in USPSA events makes everyone more confident, and competent with firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 We have a "M" class shooter that shoots with us every week that is also a police officer. I will never forget the night he told me, a mid to high C shooter at the time, that I was already better than 95% of the police officers in his force. The other thing I have noticed is that most of the time a LE officer comes to shoot with us for the first time, you usually don't see them again. Again, no slams on LE, just my experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 (edited) LEO's have to make life altering decisions in a moments notice. We do not. We shoot at every brown target we see Dare I say "Shoot 1st : ask questions later". It's just two different types of shooting. The kind that can change (or end) peoples lives, and the kind that can win championships. Completely different. Edited February 25, 2008 by CHRIS KEEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 (edited) Chris, If it all the same to you and others. I'd just as soon know that once an LE makes the decision to shoot, that he is capable of actually hitting the target. And he also needs to be able to make that split second go/no-go decision. We have all day, we get to walk through our shooting scenarios multiple times and plan our moves. In Real Life, yoy probably are going to be faced with a sudden situation where you have less than no time to react to a situation that is going bad as you watch. True enough that Swat gennerally will have a different situation, they may actually get to plan their moves and take time to plan out an entry where each shooter goes to his position and covers his area, just like TV. The cop on the street pulls someone over and that person decides 'not today', he has virually no time to think about anything other than surviving, His awarness, and his reactions better be 110%. No walk-through. If he has trouble with hitting a full size brown piece of paper when all that is on the line is a pizza, he is in the wrong line of work. And no offense meant to the many very highly skilled officers out there. We have several that we shoot with and I would willing put my life in their hands any day. Others.... Jim edited for spelling Edited February 25, 2008 by Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 LEO for 28 yrs., Firearms/Defensive Tactics Instructor for over 20 yrs. Tactics are what should be used before the shooting starts. Once the shooting starts, shooting skill is what is needed. USPSA/IDPA/3-gun competitions go a long way to teaching shooting skills under a stressful environment. The "timer" isn't the same as being shot at, but it does cause the stress level to escelate a bit. When it comes to shooting skill the "average" competition shooter holds a commanding lead over the "average" LEO. I will say, in my neck of the woods the word has gotten out about competition shooting as a possible training venue. Some of the departments now have the Officers take a squad, shoot department ammo, using the department firearms, and even pay the entry fee to some of the local shoots. Some of the Officers even get to take the shoot as one of their shifts. Pretty forward thinking in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskySig Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Some of the departments now have the Officers take a squad, shoot department ammo, using the department firearms, and even pay the entry fee to some of the local shoots. Some of the Officers even get to take the shoot as one of their shifts. Pretty forward thinking in my opinion. I say this is great progress. I wish more department leaders would follow this lead. mattk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm3gnr Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Some of the departments now have the Officers take a squad, shoot department ammo, using the department firearms, and even pay the entry fee to some of the local shoots. Some of the Officers even get to take the shoot as one of their shifts. Pretty forward thinking in my opinion. I say this is great progress. I wish more department leaders would follow this lead. mattk + 100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 (edited) LEO for 28 yrs., Firearms/Defensive Tactics Instructor for over 20 yrs. Tactics are what should be used before the shooting starts. Once the shooting starts, shooting skill is what is needed. USPSA/IDPA/3-gun competitions go a long way to teaching shooting skills under a stressful environment. The "timer" isn't the same as being shot at, but it does cause the stress level to escelate a bit. When it comes to shooting skill the "average" competition shooter holds a commanding lead over the "average" LEO. I will say, in my neck of the woods the word has gotten out about competition shooting as a possible training venue. Some of the departments now have the Officers take a squad, shoot department ammo, using the department firearms, and even pay the entry fee to some of the local shoots. Some of the Officers even get to take the shoot as one of their shifts. Pretty forward thinking in my opinion. Sounds good. It should be that way because shooting skills HAVE to be developed and they are perishable. Officers are welcome to any and all matches. You might review the safety rules and general what and how's of a competition match to make it a more enjoyable event. I offered free lessons to local police but never got taken up on it. I can increase the skill level of most shooters in a very short amount of time and usually get paid more than $0 an hour during the day. I just saw it as a way to maybe keep a cop from being shot. Edited February 26, 2008 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Great idea there Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 I was at a Police three gun benefit, with 4 other USPSA shooters. Ranging from C to M class.The first talk we started hearing on our squad after shooting the first stage was, I didn't know they where going to invite some professional shooters out to this match. We of course did not say much and we where looking around for the pro shooters that was supposed to be at this match. On the shotgun stage, ( Stage 3), The head Swat officer started asking us some questions about our shooting experience. He also stated that what we where doing and how we where shooting could not benefit them any. I did not argue at all, because I know nothing of their training. What I did mention was that there could be something learned at which the speed and accuracy that we where taking down targets compared to the paid officers. It was clear to see that our group did not need a rifle rest at 80yd poppers, could shoot on the move, and our targets accusistion, once the decision was made to shoot, was much faster and accurate. Please do not understand this as any bad talk of any type of law enforcement anywhere at all. I know many that are excellent at staying alive in harms way and very good competitors as well. Most police officers I talk to feel that their gun is another tool on their belt such as cuffs or a radio. Most state that they practice once or twice a year. I feel that participating in USPSA events makes everyone more confident, and competent with firearms. We have had similar events in our area. The city and county swat officers that shoot 3-gun at first are very reluctant to embrace our sport, but once they do they realize that it helps them with their job much more than it hurts as they become much more accurate much faster. At my club now it is not uncommon for there to be at least 5-6 different swat officers from different units there to compete. AT first they are slow and their scores are not as good, but after a while they get it and they start to climb. Funny thing is that only 1 of them is willing to shoot a open gun, the rest stick with production, limited, l-10 or SS. It always amuses me to listen to 1 of the new guys they bring with them watch a C-class shooter run a stage and look at his supervisor and say"I dont think I can do that" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofcrfs242 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 John please forgive me for the thread drift. I recently found out that another department in the state has an actual shooting team sponsored by the department. I discussed this matter with two first line supervisors and two commanders in my department and was pleased with the positive feedback. I was told that they would support it but I would have to do the leg work and homework on it. Other sponsors would also be needed to help support it. I was told that I would have to put the right spin on it (recruitment) for the administration to buy off on it. The one thing that I have going for me is that we have an interm chief that wants to make a name for himself. I will only have about three months to get this done so that the interm chief can get it in motion. Any suggestions? Mods if this needs a new thread please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 I'll give you a call this week; can I call you around 11am or so? FY42385 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofcrfs242 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 I'll give you a call this week; can I call you around 11am or so?FY42385 You have my number and I have that phone on me all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Some of the departments now have the Officers take a squad, shoot department ammo, using the department firearms, and even pay the entry fee to some of the local shoots. Some of the Officers even get to take the shoot as one of their shifts. Pretty forward thinking in my opinion. I say this is great progress. I wish more department leaders would follow this lead. mattk Each year, I make it a point to send an invitation for our Toys for Tots Match to as many Sheriff's and local PDs as I can. This year, we had several LEOs attend, including a group from one of our local Sheriff Depts. I spoke with them at various points of the match and was excited to hear them say that they were having fun. At one point, I overheard (via electronic hearing protection) one of them tell his partner that USPSA would be great training for their deputies (he was the Capt in charge of their firearms training). Since, that time, one of our regular Production shooters has gone to work with that Department and has been bringing a Deputy or two to each monthly match. I think they are starting to see the benefits of this kind of trigger time espcially since this is the same department that made some local news last year: Deputies go to a guy's house to arrest him for a murder he committed earlier in the evening. They confront the guy in his bedroom. He draws a Colt Anaconda and fires 1 round at the deputies. The four deputies present fired 16 rounds within the confines of the bedroom and only hit the suspect in the arm. Bullets were found in the ceiling and in several wells around the room. I think this was their "wake-up call." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 "....another department in the state has an actual shooting team sponsored by the department..." If that's the team I'm thinking of, they went to Area 2 in crew-cab pickup marked unit, so that's pretty good department backing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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