An observtion.

[mscott]

I'm trying to do my part here. I have a Deputy going to a steel match with me this weekend and another that said he would go next week. Maybe then I can get them to a USPSA match.

[Chris Keen]

Keep it fun and exciting and maybe they will.

[JThompson]

LEO for 28 yrs., Firearms/Defensive Tactics Instructor for over 20 yrs.

Tactics are what should be used before the shooting starts.

Once the shooting starts, shooting skill is what is needed. USPSA/IDPA/3-gun competitions go a long way to teaching shooting skills under a stressful environment. The "timer" isn't the same as being shot at, but it does cause the stress level to escelate a bit.

When it comes to shooting skill the "average" competition shooter holds a commanding lead over the "average" LEO. I will say, in my neck of the woods the word has gotten out about competition shooting as a possible training venue. Some of the departments now have the Officers take a squad, shoot department ammo, using the department firearms, and even pay the entry fee to some of the local shoots. Some of the Officers even get to take the shoot as one of their shifts. Pretty forward thinking in my opinion.

Yes. That is forward thinking. Anything to help those guys go home at night and put the bad guys down or in jail gets my vote.

[konkapot]

Ego. A big obstacle to getting a cop to shoot USPSA

1: They think....and NEED to think...that they are proficient with their firearm.

2.They think that because, well, they pass their department's qualification course, so that means they MUST be competent, right?

They NEED to think that because having a positive mental attitude is a k-e-y ingredient to winning a gunfight. Lots of firearms/force on force training is designed so the officer/trainee "wins."

Going to a USPSA match and (usually) getting their butt handed to them hammers both of the above assumptions/premises. Pretty tough to take a hit like that.......and then come back for the next match. By coming back, they would realize (emphatically) that are NOT all that proficient, and that there is much more to proficiency than passing a low-end qualification.

Also, keep in mind that in LE most anything associated with work is negative. Most cops (at least those that have been working for more than about a year) don't watch cop shows, don't watch cop movies, don't talk shop when they're off, etc. For most of them, shooting is strictly work related, and as such reminds them of negative things.

Again, there are individual exceptions to this rule, but it partially explains why it can be hard to get cops to come BACK to USPSA matches.

The typical observation is "well, their lives depend on it...you'd think they'd want to have sharp skills." I would refer you back to #2; they are "already" good. After all, they pass the depts. qual course, right?

FY42385

[SA Friday]

I put together a working fun-day for my agents, and took them to my home range with some of the regular shooters from the club. There were 4 average USPSA shooters out there with me. We shot one small stage and one meduim/large stage with movement. It lessened the blow to their egos, but clearly got the message out. I was suprised by a few on how well they did shoot, but it registered that drywallers, CPA, etc were handing them their butts because they practice more. It's a good middle of the road approach if you have the means.

[ofcrfs242]

I put together a working fun-day for my agents, and took them to my home range with some of the regular shooters from the club. There were 4 average USPSA shooters out there with me. We shot one small stage and one meduim/large stage with movement. It lessened the blow to their egos, but clearly got the message out. I was suprised by a few on how well they did shoot, but it registered that drywallers, CPA, etc were handing them their butts because they practice more. It's a good middle of the road approach if you have the means.

That is a great approach. But i fear that many still would not return. As John said ego is a major obstacle to overcome. How do you show a veteran of 5-10 years that joe blow can easily spank him in a match that requires general skill in shooting and not put a damper on his ego. Some I think would use it as an eye opening experience and learn that he needed to practice. That is one thing that I never understood is how could someone who's life relies on a certain skill not practice that skill.

Some departments DO NOT do any firearms training. IMO qualifying twice a year is not training. If an officer wants to practice it is left up to him to do it on his time, provide his ammo, etc.

I think that this "sport" could save the lives of hundreds of LEO's if they would just spend the time to do it.

[DougCarden]

<insert beating my head into the wall icon here....>

This thread dredges up lots o memories....not all good......

In 15yrs of competing I have taken almost a dozen fellow cops to matches, paid their entries, provided guns/ammo/gear, etc. Hell, I even bought lunch and paid for the gas to the match.

How many still go with me.......... Big fat zero........

It isnt that they dont have fun, or enjoy the match, and some of them are good shooters....that is why I thought they would "get" it and want to keep coming. Nope......I am convinced that with this sport, and competition shooting in general.....you either love it and go whole hog into it, or you dont. Period. John nailed the ego thing and that most officers think that they are good enough.....that is why I incorporate as much IPSC into my training as I can to prepare my people for when, not if......

As a fledgling new officer I realized that I needed to put myself under as much stress as I could while shooting so I would have a chance to survive the street, so I started going to Second Chance and putting my money where my mouth was under stress. My 9mm Beretta felt like a .22 after that, and as I have progressed I realized that what I have learned was paramount for my officers, and have taught them as much as they are willing to learn.

I also learned that they have to WANT to learn, you cant make them. God bless the guys that try to help the cops that dont realize they need it.......

DougC

[L9X25]

We had a few local LEOs that were also Master class IPSC shooters and struck a deal with the local "Police only" range. The club could hold their monthly match at the range at no charge as long as officers shot for free, we offered a top law trophy, and that we welcomed and assisted the officers. We gladly complied with all of their requests. In the years that we shot there, I can only remember one officer (other than the few that were already shooters) that shot with us more than once or twice. Those that came out at all, were usually prodded to do so by superiors and did so "on the clock". One particular guy totally embarrassed himself by being totally incapable of hitting plates at about 18 yards. He exhausted all of his ammo and the plates were still standing. I was sure that we would never see him again either but, to my surprise, he was there at the next match and received pointers and improved considerably over the following 3 months or so, before disappearing too. Sad that so few took advantage of the free training that was available, even on the clock. Unfortunately that range was lost to all as a result of projectiles exiting the range during a qualification. I wish that we could get an arrangement like that again.

[Johann the Horrible]

We have two LEO`s shooting with us. The one is a Gold class shooter and really kicks butt. The other is what you guys would call a "mall ninja". He constantly comes last and refuses to take advice. Pity, the people giving advice are some of the finest in the country.

[Zerwas]

Ego. A big obstacle to getting a cop to shoot USPSA

1: They think....and NEED to think...that they are proficient with their firearm.

2.They think that because, well, they pass their department's qualification course, so that means they MUST be competent, right?

They NEED to think that because having a positive mental attitude is a k-e-y ingredient to winning a gunfight. Lots of firearms/force on force training is designed so the officer/trainee "wins."

Going to a USPSA match and (usually) getting their butt handed to them hammers both of the above assumptions/premises. Pretty tough to take a hit like that.......and then come back for the next match. By coming back, they would realize (emphatically) that are NOT all that proficient, and that there is much more to proficiency than passing a low-end qualification.

Also, keep in mind that in LE most anything associated with work is negative. Most cops (at least those that have been working for more than about a year) don't watch cop shows, don't watch cop movies, don't talk shop when they're off, etc. For most of them, shooting is strictly work related, and as such reminds them of negative things.

Again, there are individual exceptions to this rule, but it partially explains why it can be hard to get cops to come BACK to USPSA matches.

The typical observation is "well, their lives depend on it...you'd think they'd want to have sharp skills." I would refer you back to #2; they are "already" good. After all, they pass the depts. qual course, right?

FY42385

+ 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Man, you hit the nail squarely on the head and drove it into infinity!

I'm an LEO and firearm instructor for my minor/major department (550+) and I have attempted to get several of my folks to come with me as well over the years. Like Doug C. I have had ZERO come with me. This includes the SRT (swat) guys on our agency that make fun of the "alphabet competition" that I compete in all the time (USPSA). When asked they say they don't need to shoot it because it isn't realistic. HMMM. My response is, how do you know unless you have been there and tried it?. They just shake their heads and walk away. Pride. It's a bad thing.

I recall going to my first IDPA match in about 1997 thinking I was going to roll since I was a troop for 7 years at that point. I had to be good, right? After all, I shot the qualification course and passed it with flying colors. I HAD to be good....

Well, I fell flat on my face, and did everything wrong. For lack of a better word or description, I sucked. Now, I could have packed my pride in my range bag and never came back or I could have done what I did. I figured if all these "civilian" shooters could out-shoot me, I'd be in a world of trouble if I ever ran across any of them in a gun battle.

So, I came back and made it a part of my training. I have seen moved on to the USPSA and have become a little better shooter. I now have the confidence that if a situation heads south, I'll be at least on equal ground with the bad guy.

I am glad you put this thread up.

I should print it off and take it to my chief to have him put together an action shooting team for our agency.

[Chuck Anderson]

We've got several very good LE shooters in my area, including a couple GM's. However, there are 1000's of cops within a 50 mile area and we get maybe 15 that shoot with any kind of consistency. There are a couple issues that I think may effect this. One is scheduling. For the most part we hold matches on Sat/Sun and the new guys that may be into IPSC for bettering their skills are pretty much working the weekends. I think another is the way IPSC is presented to them as a way to increase their shooting skills to make them better cops. I think that causes a big ego hit when they go out and get their butt kicked by the CPA, attorney, drywaller, etc. I have had better luck explaining that only a portion of it is shooting. The rest of it is tactics. Normally at first I get a snort where they say that IPSC isn't tactical. I point out that the best shooters will always go into a stage with a plan in mind and rehearsed. There are "rules" for which targets to shoot first, and what order to engage them etc. These are tactics for shooting the stage. I explain that a lot of the reason that the folks that aren't cops are kicking their butts are because they know these special game related tactics and the officer doesn't yet, but they will pick them up over time. At least with my agency, I know that the majority of our officers are C class shooters with several B class and a couple that are pretty easily M class if they spent a little time at matches (one guy consistenly does .75 draws out of a security holster, I didn't believe him till I put him on a timer). However they will only get to that point if they spend more than a couple matches learning the game.

As far as IPSC's benefits, I know that it has helped me tremendously on the street. I have yet to jump into a room with 16 targets and hosed them all down. I haven't stood in a little box and shot 8 suspects down that are lined up 4 in front of the other 4. But it has allowed me to not worry if I can make a shot on the street. I don't consider my skill with a gun when I'm working. I know if the time comes to make a shot, that I can make it. This means I don't have to crowd up to a bad situation because I don't think I can make a shot from 15 yds. I allows me to focus completely on the tactics needed to get me out of the gunfight, before I have to use the skills I learned shooting IPSC.

[Alan Meek]

Years ago when I put on monthly match with my match in a trailer, I let the local CHP training officer have access to the gear and he would use it in his range training. First they would do the required training and then he would setup IPSC style stages for them to shoot. He said the CHP Officers enjoyed the stages and I always found boxes of once fired 40 S&W in the trailer. He would let the officers know if they enjoyed the stages to pickup all of their brass and put it a box as payment to me.

[Johann the Horrible]

The point I have been making to my students all the time. Thank you!! They just need to get trigger time, hell if it is only a Level 1 once a month it meens that they got 150 rounds in that month! Will they run and reload during a situation, of course not, they will just be able to reload smoothly because they have practiced a bit. As you preached, brother, they need to leave their pride at home and come and shoot- even if a bunch of civvies kick their butt. As also implied- for some it is just a job, when they come off duty they leave it at work. They will drive by a shootout and just rubberneck it because their heart is not in the job. To them being a LEO is about the salary and maybe a bird ot two that falls for the uniform. The REAL cop never goes off duty, he will be there 24/7/365! This is the guy we need to get to do practical. This is the guy that will help you just because you need it and not because it is his job. Sadly this guy will probably stay below commission rank as he is in it for the calling and not the bucks.

Sorry as you can see it lies close to the heart of this retired cop. Maybe not in uniform anymore but, much to the annoyance of my family, sometimes still on the job.

[Dave Wilson]

I have been not only involved in putting on our local ICORE and Steel Challenge matches, but also put on a monthly very small indoor match. Numerous times I have spoke with the local chief of police about getting some of his guys in to run the courses at least in the indoor range. He told me that he will make sure any of his officers will have free ammo to practice with, he will pass along my rule of Badges shoot for free, and asured me that I will probably not see any officers show up. Most of the local LE agencies are way understaffed, resulting in a butt load of overtime. these guys get a day off and they want nothing that reminds them of work. The chief said the only way to get some of them there would be to pay them OT to do it, and that probably wouldn't happen.

There are some on the swat team that do practice on their days off, but they don't want to come into a match that they can't win. They know that the competition shooters will hand them their butts and thats rough on the ego. I keep trying though. In the next 6 months sometime, I am planning on having a run and gun, LE only night (maybe a LE fund raiser) to try to get more into the range to practice. These guys as part of their job carry a tool belt with them and I want them to know how to be very competent in the use of all the tools there.

It is nice to know though, that I am not alone in wanting to get the LE more trainiing. It looks like a bunch of us are banging our heads into the wall trying to over come ego, and agency limitations of time and money. AS far as I'm concerned, I'll just keep plugging away, trying to get more in. I know they probably won't come, but that won't stop me from asking....

Dave

[SA Friday]

Wow, I feel successful. I got one of my agents into it permanently and his wife too, and another part time.

It's real simple. Some horses drink the water, some don't. It's just our job to fill the trough.

[hf219]

Im a LEO, when I first started I had an enthusiastic attitude about shooting a handgun. Our county holds an annual shooting match for LEO only. I did pretty well my first year on the job, so I ventured out to get more training. Training only went so far within my dept., my first very very informal pistol match was a big eye opener. I had been spanked by a guy I think was using a walker or something (LOL). I didnt take it as a threat or bruise on my ego, I said to myself that apparently Im not getting the training that I really need. After my first USPSA match, I was vaccumed into the sport like a black hole. My second USPSA match was the FLA state chmp., I did ok, and I still didnt even know you could start with 11 rnds in the gun on L10. I think with LEO's that not everyone has the same situation. Im in a dept with around 140 officers, many are single working families. Many are very young, just got on the job, and like to enjoy their youthful nonsense. On the other hand, one person that I shoot with who is an LEO has brought his dept and regional swat team to the World Swat Competition and won. He certainly did not get his team or himself (M class) to that level without some inspiring help from this sport. There are officers that benefit from our sports instruction. Although most LEO use physical force more than their weapons, and wright more legal complaints than either one. In todays world as a LEO you must be 60% attorney, 30% physical force proficient, and 10% weapon specialist. The numbers maybe slightly skewed, although it shows a more accurate interest that police take in their jobs. By no way am I saying that every LEO is this way or that 10% firearms proficency is good enough. Im saying thats the percentage that each skill is used everyday in our jobs, roughly. Keep in mind that some officers, as childish as it may be, do feel threatened when someone of superior ability demonstrates a proper reload or accuracy that they themselves cannot match or better at that time. When I went through firearms instructors school a very highly recognized teacher explained why he doesnt shoot in front of students. "How can I compete against someone that has practiced a certain drill all day, when I havent spent any time doing it myself on that paticular day". He also said that if your going to demonstrate something to a student you better be able to perform it perfectly. I guess I took that a little bit diffently than the way it sounds here.

Edited March 4, 2008 by hf219

[DougCarden]

When I went through firearms instructors school a very highly recognized teacher explained why he doesnt shoot in front of students. "How can I compete against someone that has practiced a certain drill all day, when I havent spent any time doing it myself on that paticular day". He also said that if your going to demonstrate something to a student you better be able to perform it perfectly. I guess I took that a little bit diffently than the way it sounds here.

I call Bullshit to this......If that is what he wants to do, and he is the alpha male, so be it in his circle.

In my area I demonstrate technique and how I want the drills done, and why. That is why I spend so damn much money and time at the range. To be proficient and so my "cold" times are good enough to show what I need to teach.

They have to beat me, and when they do, they get a hearty handshake and thanks for paying attention and doing what needed to be done. This is a great motivator, beat the teacher......I try to not screw up too much.... , but it happens sometimes, and it is good for the students when it does.......My .02 cents.....Kinda makes me feel good when my students beat me........at the range.....

DougC

[AWLAZS]

I have read that post and I meant to add my 2 cents. I am a firearms instructor for my PD I have been a cop for 11 years.

I remember when I was at the academy. On Mondays we would go to the gym and dry fire. We were given instructions on the steps of the draw and how to do a reload. I could never understand why they taught it that way. It added steps to the task. When they teach the reload that have you keep the gun out at arms length up on target and looking downrange. At this point I was a C/B shooter. I was getting yelled out for not doing things the way I was shown to do them. Once we were allowed to do full speed drills the instructor came up to me he had finally noticed I could draw and reload faster and cleaner then he could. He asked me my background, I told him, and was used has an example for smoothness from then on. They still teach the goofy stuff though

Like I said I am an instructor at my PD I spoke with the person in charge of training at the department. I was asked what goals were needed for firearms training. I told her we needed to train the trainers because none of them knew what the hell they were doing. Even if they came up with a course of fire they couldn't teach the skills required or even do it themselves.

I was asked how can we teach them. I suggested they shoot USPSA matches. I said the club would let them shoot the first match for free. The department could adjust the instructors schedule and provide the ammo. They could shoot from their department issued equipment. I would hang up the open gun and shoot with them. They thought it was a great idea... but... and it never happened.

For the most part cops don't shoot. They have a huge ego about being a cop and the only people being qualified to carry guns. For them to go to the match and come in last (they would) would not open their eyes it would keep them away. Most of them anyway.

I can't tell you how many time I have heard"I have been a cop for a long time and this is the way I do it" Its tough to teach some one with that mindset.

They all think I am crazy about guns they call me a "gun nut" . I tell them its not the guns its the shooting

[Sgtsvi]

I compete in the Texas Police olympics each year. I shoot skeet and trap on the first two days, and tactical pistols on the third day. I usually come out of the shotgun events with a couple of gold medals but I really look forward to the pistol match. When I show up and see all the tactical SWAT guys with their HK USP's in thigh rigs bragging about how they prepared for this match by shooting 200 rounds a month I just smile. After they shoot a stage, I will usually take about 10-20 seconds off their time when I shoot. Alot of the guys at the games have NO muzzle discipline and flag other shooters several times. During and after the match I always tell other officers about USPSA and tell them where clubs are in their area. I don't know if they look into the clubs or not but I always attemp to promote the shooting sports when I attend the police olympics each year.

[Calmwater]

I am a range officer with my department. They got the term right when they picked"range officer" instead of "range instructor". The one week of instructor development training I got hardly prepares me for teaching a complicated physical skill. I have recently gotten excited about USPSA shooting and jumped into the game this month. My large well known and well respected department just reduced our annual training by half because of the cost of ammo.........

Jim Cirillo in his book stated competition shooters and handgun hunters tended to perform well under the stress of real combat shoots. Col. Dave Grossman talks about stress innoculation being a large factor in officers success in combat shooting. I think competitive shooting provides a great source for "stress shooting". I for one, really appreciate the guidance I have been given by other shooters and the great resource this forum provides.

[pskys2]

My favorite response, is the Steely Eyed Glare and "I don't shoot paper" growl. Invariably from a long time Officer, who doesn't compete.

[Zerwas]

My favorite response, is the Steely Eyed Glare and "I don't shoot paper" growl. Invariably from a long time Officer, who doesn't compete.

When he utters those words, you should ask him, "so, when you qualify your 2-3 times per year, do you shoot at real people, or do you shoot at paper?".

Also inform him, we have steel targets too....

[pskys2]

My favorite response, is the Steely Eyed Glare and "I don't shoot paper" growl. Invariably from a long time Officer, who doesn't compete.

When he utters those words, you should ask him, "so, when you qualify your 2-3 times per year, do you shoot at real people, or do you shoot at paper?".

Also inform him, we have steel targets too....

Nah, what ever mindset gets them home at night, is fine by me.

[Alan Meek]

I have read that post and I meant to add my 2 cents. I am a firearms instructor for my PD I have been a cop for 11 years.

<Snipped>

I was asked how can we teach them. I suggested they shoot USPSA matches. I said the club would let them shoot the first match for free. The department could adjust the instructors schedule and provide the ammo. They could shoot from their department issued equipment. I would hang up the open gun and shoot with them. They thought it was a great idea... but... and it never happened.

For the most part cops don't shoot. They have a huge ego about being a cop and the only people being qualified to carry guns. For them to go to the match and come in last (they would) would not open their eyes it would keep them away. Most of them anyway.

I can't tell you how many time I have heard"I have been a cop for a long time and this is the way I do it" Its tough to teach some one with that mindset.

They all think I am crazy about guns they call me a "gun nut" . I tell them its not the guns its the shooting

Randy,

Have you tried setting up a Vice Pres at your training day, Use the targets you normally use for training and set your own scoring.

Setting up some quick and easy stages might be the kick start you need to get them flowing.

Just a thought.

Alan

ps We all have a competitve desire, we just need to tap into it

[kevin c]

Some things never seem to change: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...7542&hl=LEO

But I have come to a couple realizations about this, and about all the "shooters", LE or otherwise, that we think would/should love our sport and puzzle us by not buying into it the way we on this forum do.

I'd guess any sport has it's committed hard core participants, and I'm not talking about the pro's, but the amateurs. The committed (there's a double entendre for you...) are the few, aren't they (we)?

Most people who say they're into a sport do it casually, skiing a few weekends a year, a couple sets of tennis here and nine holes of golf there, a pickup game of any kind of ball once or twice a week. More than that, practicing your putt or drive, working on your jump shot, you're serious. Spend time daily on practice, money on training/instruction, and travel regularly not just to play but to COMPETE, you're driven/fanatical/obsessed. Devote all your free time to forums on the sport or on uncompensated sport related activities like organizing competitions and promoting the sport, and you're plain nuts. Wanna guess where we fall on this spectrum?

Most shooters, like most sports participants, are casual. They do it for fun. So they dabble in Action Shooting like they dabble at skiing, they do it once in a while, and aren't interested in what we do as the hard core enthusiast. This is why they only come to matches occasionally, and why they have NO or little interest in helping out (a major issue at a most clubs, I'm sure).

LE are not hired to be crack shots. They work to preserve the peace. Shooting is just a (hopefully) very small part of what they need to do each shift, and while their training and interest in shooting seems woefully inadequate to us, we have a strictly shooting oriented perspective. Not to discount anything that was said above (I think there's a lot of truth, there), but most cops are casual shooters with other interests, both professionally and recreationally.

my two cents plus sales tax