An observtion.

[Flexmoney]

What if you had to carry a basketball around all day? And, somebody could sound a horn at any time and you'd have to make a basket...?

[R112mercer]

These are some things I've noticed over the years. I've been shooting in competitions since 2001 and been a police officer (small Sheriff's Dept. outside of NYC) since 2003.

+1 to the horse to water example. Some people love to shoot. Some don't give a hoot. On this forum we all love to shoot, but you don't hear many people extolling the virtues of going to the opera or reading the New York Times. Anybody who's into those things would try their hardest to get others to try to understand their interests and would be puzzled when others didn't care.

Schedules. Shooting happens usually on SAT/SUN, which when you work a rotating shift can mean you only get weekends off once every three months. Hmm, spend a summer weekend relaxing with my family, or waking up early, driving a long distance, and baking in the sun...

And the last one is a big one to me. BALL BREAKING. Cop's break each other's balls. All the time. Add to that all the toolbag stuff you get from the public ("Have you shot anyone yet?" "Look, Bill, they're coming for you!" when you walk in a room or "I didn't do it!" or "Can you tell my kid you'll take them to jail if they don't behave?", etc.) and it's nice to get away from that sometime. It's gets kind of old when you go to a match on your personal time, on your own money, with your own gas and ammo, and some complete stranger finds out you're on the job and makes some completely stupid comments that remind you of what you get paid to put up with.

I'll never forget bringing a friend of mine to the range once. He is a long time PPC shooter and ESU cop. The guy is already a competitive shooter so I figure bringing him to a USPSA match will be a natural fit. We get to the match and I watch in horror as not more than ten minutes after being there some guy WHO HAS NEVER MET THIS PERSON starts breaking his balls about being a crappy shot and a donut eater. I could see in this guys eyes that he was never coming back. After the match he asked me what the deal was and I had no answer.

This guy is a great guy and a great cop who puts up with a ton of crap every day in one of the roughest neighborhoods in the biggest city in the US. And he does it as an ESU cop where they may do three to four entries A DAY. And some know nothing tool whose total experience is hosing paper and watching CSI: Miami busts his chops.

Be courteous, be polite, and respect others boundaries. Over time they'll come to respect you and THEN you can bust balls like the old pals that you are. Don't put the cart before the horse.

And here's a great example of your typical police involved shooting:

Think this shot required great marksmanship?

Better yet, how do you think you would have performed, from initiating the stop to it's conclusion? And remember, this is for posterity so be honest!

Edited March 13, 2008 by R112mercer

[waynewal]

[Videos

Thanks for the reference to the videos on reloading with Army Coporal. Most enlightening!

Thanks

Wayne TY9915

Edited August 26, 2008 by waynewal

[Carmoney]

I will never forget the night he told me, a mid to high C shooter at the time, that I was already better than 95% of the police officers in his force.

I vividly remember a police firearms trainer telling my son Sam the exact same thing. Sam was 11 years old at the time.

[Patrick Sweeney]

The State agency I teach for has a requirement that the instructors fire the qual course, for record, as part of each and every class they instruct. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I fell in with a competitive crowd, and it is a point of pride that we have all fired a perfect score every time for years.

And afterwards we compete on our own, for the informal "king of the hill" status.

If someone is too tired or worn-out to turn in a performance that is suitable, they should step aside for the next instructor.

[oddjob]

30 yrs as a LEO here, 26 yrs as a firearms instructor and former SWAT. I have shot steel matches where the local SWAT guys came out to practice before a SWAT competition. They are friends of mine from another agency and I asked how they liked the match. They were simply amazed at the skill level and speed. They never did come back. Not they don't like to compete, but that USPSA shooting just wasn't their "thing". They are hunters and thats their "thing". I'm just the opposite.........I shoot USPSA and don't hunt. Most cops consider their weapons as a tool and thats it.

My son's senior project was the local SWAT team. I believe he was an Open "A" at the time with about two years of shooting under his belt (including 3 gun). He got to the range portion and simply out shot the SWAT guys with their MP5's, M-4's and Glocks. The part that really made me laugh was when my son told me he beat them with their Glocks and he told them (respectfully) he does not like Glocks.

My experience is that a mid "D" to low "C" class shooter can beat about 90% to 95% of all LEO's. I think SWAT people shoot at about a mid "C" to low "B" level. Please remember I'm generalizing here.

[Anon]

......LE are not hired to be crack shots. They work to preserve the peace. Shooting is just a (hopefully) very small part of what they need to do each shift....

.... career!

Of all the problem-solving skills a LEO needs, shooting-skills ranks near the bottom. I'm no LE, but I would imagine that verbal people-skills are FAR more important than shooting skills. But, I'm not going to poke fun at an officer for not wanting to spend his/her time off going to debate training, or Toastmasters.

Sure, if an officer finds a situation where they need to shoot, it would be great if they are really good at it, but (as history has shown) it works out that the officer usually needs to be merely half-competent.

Think of all the dangerous situations an officer can get in, and you'll notice that most of them don't even involve drawing a gun, much less shooting it. In fact, since most officers that die on duty, die in automobile accidents.... should we be complaining that every time a cop shows up on track-day in his patrol car, he gets spanked by the other entrants in an auto race?

Are ham-radio enthusiasts over in another forum, making fun of officers for not being super-competant with their radios? (again, a skill more valuable that shooting).

At the group-therapy-psychologists-forum, are they saying that even the worst of them can manipulate someone better than an average cop?

[pskys2]

......LE are not hired to be crack shots. They work to preserve the peace. Shooting is just a (hopefully) very small part of what they need to do each shift....

.... career!

Of all the problem-solving skills a LEO needs, shooting-skills ranks near the bottom. I'm no LE, but I would imagine that verbal people-skills are FAR more important than shooting skills. But, I'm not going to poke fun at an officer for not wanting to spend his/her time off going to debate training, or Toastmasters.

Sure, if an officer finds a situation where they need to shoot, it would be great if they are really good at it, but (as history has shown) it works out that the officer usually needs to be merely half-competent.

Think of all the dangerous situations an officer can get in, and you'll notice that most of them don't even involve drawing a gun, much less shooting it. In fact, since most officers that die on duty, die in automobile accidents.... should we be complaining that every time a cop shows up on track-day in his patrol car, he gets spanked by the other entrants in an auto race?

Are ham-radio enthusiasts over in another forum, making fun of officers for not being super-competant with their radios? (again, a skill more valuable that shooting).

At the group-therapy-psychologists-forum, are they saying that even the worst of them can manipulate someone better than an average cop?

I don't think anyone is poking fun at LE. It's a tough, dangerous, unappreciated, thankless, boring....job that has to be ones life if you're to be good.

I've met Bill Jordan and I'd not want to make light of him or Jim Cirrilo or Masaad Ayoob or ....

But paying attention to details and good hand/eye coordination can be useful in all things.

[bierman]

......LE are not hired to be crack shots. They work to preserve the peace. Shooting is just a (hopefully) very small part of what they need to do each shift....

.... career!

Of all the problem-solving skills a LEO needs, shooting-skills ranks near the bottom. I'm no LE, but I would imagine that verbal people-skills are FAR more important than shooting skills. But, I'm not going to poke fun at an officer for not wanting to spend his/her time off going to debate training, or Toastmasters.

Sure, if an officer finds a situation where they need to shoot, it would be great if they are really good at it, but (as history has shown) it works out that the officer usually needs to be merely half-competent.

Think of all the dangerous situations an officer can get in, and you'll notice that most of them don't even involve drawing a gun, much less shooting it. In fact, since most officers that die on duty, die in automobile accidents.... should we be complaining that every time a cop shows up on track-day in his patrol car, he gets spanked by the other entrants in an auto race?

Are ham-radio enthusiasts over in another forum, making fun of officers for not being super-competant with their radios? (again, a skill more valuable that shooting).

At the group-therapy-psychologists-forum, are they saying that even the worst of them can manipulate someone better than an average cop?

You are correct, verbal/people skills are vitally important to any LEO. However, I got to "pratice" my "verbal judo" everyday, on every contact I made. I quickly figured out what worked and what did not.

I was not a radio enthusiast, but I got to "practice" on one dozens of times a day, every day, until I was proficient, again figuring things out over time (ie. know what you are going to say before you key up the mike). Same with driving a car. Something I got to "practice" everyday.

I never once fired any of my weapons in the line of duty in 11 years. I worked in a 65 officer dept. and we had maybe 10 folks who had. Some of those were at dogs, but some had to shoot at people, always to defend themself and/or another officer. So, while shooting may be a low FREQUENCY skill, it is a high VALUE skill. Unfortunately, most of the guys and gals I worked with did not bother much with honing that skill. Again, like many previous posters have said, they looked at their gun as a tool, nothing more. It is sad, but I don't really think it will ever change much.

[Anon]

At 1:26 in this video, the public might be better served by a handful of officers who are also "C" class shooters.

That said, the officers in the video went toward the trouble. For that they are to be commended.

In the end, the situation was resolved by someone who could shoot while standing, under stress (though not a pistol).

http://blutube.policeone.com/Clip.aspx?key=230A621B6BABD875

Edited August 28, 2008 by Anon

[Jim Norman]

Anon, what video??

[Anon]

Ooops!

http://blutube.policeone.com/Clip.aspx?key=230A621B6BABD875

Edited original post.

[konkapot]

UPDATE-

Had another one come through very recently; a B class Production shooter. Although not a former police officer, same complete and total dominance over his classmates.

Particularly noteworthy was that he was not afraid to push himself, and seem to truly be having f-u-n shooting.

Great discussions in this thread.

FY42385