Tactical Division shotgun ---- and the RULES

[TRUBL]

Ok......now here we go.

In the tactical division.....the rules state that the shotgun can hold no more that 9 rounds max at some matches. Pretty clear??? Right??? Evidently not.

I contend that this rule is (was) really meant to be.....no more than 9 rounds FIRED before reloading. How do I know this??? I authored the rule for the DPMS tri-gun match way in the begining. Taking the rules from the Superstition Mountain match.....at the time they had a barrel length limit and a tube length limit....not a capacity limit. The only ones that used a capacity limit at that time was USPSA.....and it was used not really as an equipment limit, but as a 'rounds' fired before reloading limit as that was the way it was to be caught.

Now here is my reasoning......the RO will catch you if shoot more than the alloted number of rounds for the division. Now.....something that was NEVER done before happened, people were pushed into open class becasue their shotgun tubes held 9 rounds, not because they fired more than 9 rounds before reloading (well, maybe some did and that would be a good thing). In my opinion, it was wrong....why??? Well....if you actually read the letter of the rule, ANYONE that used a benelli that held 8 in the tube, 1 in the chamber and 1 on the carrier....should have been moved into the open division.....period.....there shotgun can hold 10 rounds max....not 9.

Bottom line, if you are going to modify the rule at the match from its original intent.....and I assure I know the original intent.....IE...I wrote it. Then you had better make sure that the guys with the Benelli's that can be ghost loaded can only put 7 rounds in their tubes.

Or.....you could have RO's that know when a guy is cheating on his re-loads and go with the rules as it was intended.

WOW....eh???

What this means really is......the rule needs to be more clear....and I am sorry that I didn't see this coming when I pen'd it 5 years ago. Seems like it may suck to be you in tactical, if you have a benelli that can be ghost loaded.

[Brian Payne]

I think the rule should be made very simple. Stage starts with 9 rounds in weapon (or 8 in mag tube if unloaded start). Competitor can have any length mag tube. After the stage starts, load as needed.

Intent of the law and letter of the law are sometimes two different things. To keep it simple, just make everyone start with the same number of rounds in the weapon. After the stage starts, use your best ability to freestyle the stage as needed.

Round capacity should not be what puts people into the open class, just the use of reloading devices (sticks or magazines), comps, and electronic sights.

I would hate to see rules that govern the OAL of the mag tube. If someone wants a tube that holds 12 rounds, let them have at it. As long as they start with 9 in the gun. I really don't see where there would be that much of an advantage to something like that.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Sgt

[benny hill]

The someone that bumped to open had 10 rds in their shotgun when they tried to start the stage in tactical class.

[kurtm]

There were SEVERAL someones that started with more than 10 in the gun, so I guess we need to be very specific. With that said, we need to align ourselves with the IPSC rules that state 9 in the gun to start, 8 in the gun for an empty chamber start! That is all! you can hold what ever, just satisfy those start amounts and all is well. The unfortunate part is that you now need a deticated R.O. to count rounds on the pre-load, so start staffing up! KURTM

[xpd54]

One of the guys in my squad got bumped to OPEN cuz his Remy COULD hold too many rounds. He didn't have 10 in it, though. He ended up winning high LEO in OPEN class and won a Tac Vest. Worked out well in the end, but as a Benelli shooter, I'd like to see some clarification in the rules for next year.

Edited December 4, 2007 by xpd54

[TRUBL]

UPDATE..........I talked with the current RM for the DPMS tri-gun......he now sees the problem, especially with the Benelli thing. He is looking into changing the wording of the rule to the intent that it was meant.

[kellyn]

I'm with Kurt on this one. We should follow the IPSC Standard Division shotgun rules. Once that buzzer goes off, you can start loading if you want.

I'm sorry TRUBL, I don't think that I have never seen the idea that we start with 8+1 and then can load as many as we want applied in a U.S. match. I have seen other matches bump people into open for this same violation.

Sgt., depending on the stage, it can be a real advantage to having a longer tube. When I shot Standard in England in June there were 2 stages that I was loading the shotgun before shooting it.

[TRUBL]

No Kelly, you haven't, and that is not what I stated. In the IPSC (USPSA override) standard division, it has been 8+1 to start....and you better not ever shoot 10 (9 round div cap) before reloading or welcome to open. There is a restriction on how many you can put in the gun....not a restriction on the number of rounds the gun can hold.

My proof of this???? See page 80 (US appendix D2) of the 2004 USPSA rules.....it states "maximum of 9 rounds loaded, 8 rounds in the case of 8.1.1.2"...no footnotes as you can see.

(Thats my story and I am stickin with it).

I with ya Kelly, I like the IPSC version of the rules.

Tim

Edited December 4, 2007 by TRUBL

[Brian Payne]

Kellyn,

I guess my point is that there can sometimes reach a point of diminished returns when it comes to mag tube length. The 10 or 12 round tube length that helps in one stage may hinder you in the close confines at another stage. As long as the rule states shotgun mag tues can't be changed during a match. I understand your point though.

I am all for the IPSC shotgun rules. Simple and easy to follow.

I will still attend any match, without regard to its shotgun rules, as long as the match has a high "fun" factor. Playing by any of the rules it not that tough, I just hate to have to plug my shotgun mag tube.

[joer]

So, if it is going to be "could" hold 8 rounds, I guess everyone shooting production will have to use 10 roiund magazines also?

[Carlos]

Benelli is not the only gun that can hold one on the carrier (ie "ghost load"). The Super X-2 - which is the same as an FN SLP and the same as Browning Gold - can also function with one on the carrier.

[benelli2]

I'm all in favor of going to the IPSC rules for limited/ standard class, 9 loaded to start and then up to you, it is definately an advantage to be able to load more from time to time and as long as the length is kept resonable doesn't hurt in the big picture. My extrema will also hold a round on the carrier. 99% of competitors had their guns set up as the rules intended for the FB3gun. Many people had the tubes plugged, hopefully all the matches will adopt the IPSC definition and we can move on to more important issues like shooting.

jc

[blkbrd]

Benelli is not the only gun that can hold one on the carrier (ie "ghost load"). The Super X-2 - which is the same as an FN SLP and the same as Browning Gold - can also function with one on the carrier.

X-2 may work with one on the carrier but no joy with the Browning due to the speed feed feature locking up the gun when one is on the carrier. The balancing act can bite you.

[mpeltier]

I prefer the IPSC rule of 9 to start max but no restriction on what it can hold. I had a Rem 1100 that would hold 8 brandX shells, problem is with BrandX it was a jam-o-matic. A different brand shells functioned perfectly but was an 1/8th inch shorter and 9 would fit the tube. Benelli's pose a similar problem in that older ones came from the factory with the ability to be ghost loaded, new ones must be modified. The capacity thing should definately be a stipulated number not an equipment limitation in MHO. Most RO's I know can count to at least 10.

[Neil Smith]

The IPSC rule was changed in January of 2006 If my memory is correct, IPSC tried the length restriction route to begin with but came up against similar problems, some guns using 65mm shells could hold 10 but only 9 with 70mm shells, in an attempt to make it work dummy shells were machined to a length of 58mm +/- 1mm (length of the average unfired shell) & were used at sign in to check competitors guns, now although this gave people a known & declared standard to adhere too it was an incredibly slow process & in a large matchs LIII & above would be almost unworkable, the fix was as stated here, make it 9 at the start only, its much easy for the RO's to count the rounds into the gun than try to spot guns that dont comply to a bunch of size rules.

As a interesting note, even with the new ability within the rules to have longer mag tubes at the IPSC Level IV Shotgun match in Greece in Sept 2006 (ESC 06) most competitors in the Standard Divisions (pump & auto) chose to keep there guns short & 9/10 capacity was the favoured option, the need for a gun that was quick to handle seems more important than capacity.

N

[TRUBL]

It seems this has been a good discussion......and it also seems that the IPSC version of the rule makes the most since to all. Now......how do we get the word to the RM's of the individual matches??? I'll be talking to the DPMS RM on this very soon.

Tim

[Religious Shooter]

.... I'll be talking to the DPMS RM on this very soon.

Tim

Talk to him about the HM mag rules too.

6.7.1.4 No magazine shall exceed a 20 round capacity.

[outerlimits]

while we're at it, we should address the limited-10 open shotgun we open shooters are forced to use...

[TRUBL]

while we're at it, we should address the limited-10 open shotgun we open shooters are forced to use...

WHOOOOOOAAAA.......you are talkin a whole other ball game with that one bud......thats a USPSA thing aint it?? and you know how fast that will change.

Most IMGA matches, dont care how many you have in open......USPSA will hopefully follow on that one

Edited December 5, 2007 by TRUBL

[richardschennberg]

I agree with the original poster's rule. However, in matches of any variety an flavor I don't think Benelli M-1s (or M-2s with a modified bolt) should be penalized unless you actually load one on the carrier when you tube already can hold 8. No one is going to load 8+1+1 while the clock is running, so starting with 8+1 is a sufficient restriction.

Richard

[bigbrowndog]

another point that silently was placed into the discussion is round size, determining capacity. 2 1/2" shells are still readily available and used with some regularity at least last year. This point is adequately rendered useless by simply utilizing 9 rounds at the start for tactical, on a loaded gun start and 8 for an unloaded start, and once the buzzer goes off load what you want .

In open I believe the sky is the limit..........................................enuf said about that.

trapr

[steel1212]

I'm new to the whole 3 gun thing but it seems to me if there is going to be a X number on start then it should be same said number through out the stage, open excluded cause well its open. If you have a unchambered start then just say 8 in the gun with an empty chamber? Or am I missing something?

[itento]

I RO'ed shotgun stages at the last two Area 6 and Ft Benning matches. At all 4 matches we had pre-loading of shotguns. This is one of the problems, but we need it to keep the stages going. From my prespective, both IMGA and USPSA need to have simple, easily enforceable rules. Here's what I would like to see:

OPEN: No restrictions on capacity or magazine length.

Tactical/Standard: No restriction on magazine size (no measurements involved). Rounds loaded during pre-load: 8 max period. Rounds loaded at Make Ready: 1 only period. After start, no restriction on rounds loaded. This way, when the shooter comes to the line, the RO know the shooter is only going to put 1 round in the gun and it meets the capacity rules for start. This also simplifies the pre-load procedure. The pre-loader counts 8 rounds and its over.

[TRUBL]

Itento.....After talking with the RM of the DPMS Trigun, he is going to change that rule.....I only hope that Benning can do that as well. Will make it pretty much the same accross the board then

Tim

[StealthyBlagga]

Under SMM3G2007 and RM3G2007 rules, a Tactical Division shotgun must start the stage with no more than 9 rounds total in the gun. After the beep, the competitor has the freedom to load as many rounds as he wants, whenever he wants. My 11-87 is set up with a 10+1 mag tube, which IMHO gives me a significant competitive advantage on some stages. Perfectly legal at these matches.

For matches that mandate a maximum of 9+1 in the gun at all times (e.g. USPSA), I keep an 8-shot mag tube on hand too, to avoid the chance of misloading and to save the extra length.

Personally, I don't care which way the rules go. The USPSA rule is clear enough, as was the original SMM3G rule (max 22" barrel, mag tube not more than 1" past muzzle). What I do care about is that the rule be clear before the first shot is fired... busting a competitor to Open when the rule is so unclear is just piss poor !