How much would you pay for full course IPSC TRANING?

[dirtypool40]

I'm still confused. Is $1500 for the whole class? As in each of ten guys pays $150?

$1000+ a day is not unusual for payment to the instructor of a course. Check any LEO or military set up and $1000 a day for groups is not out of line. Per student $1500 is out there.

As we keep talking about great teachers vs. great instructors; No one wants to bad mouth a champion and it's easy to market being a champion shooter, it's harder to market yourself saying "I know I haven't won major championships, but I have the training and skills of a great instructor". A lot of first timers would choose the guy with the wins and big name, and the better "teacher" is sought by those who know, and word of mouth from folks he "turned the light on" for.

Finding someone who can analyze and really dissect your shooting, knows how to improve it and can get the message through is hard to find.

Edited December 3, 2007 by dirtypool40

[shooterbenedetto]

ok , let me define this even more, we all pay a $3,000 for a race gun if not more but we dont invest on our shooting skills! hypethetically speaking, I'm talking a full course from basic to advance shooting for $1500.00? in Manny Brag and Matt Brukett one on one, Im thinkings 3 sessions for $350.00 each? a total of $1050.00 to get a full course. With Eric's advance course, he is charging about $800.00 for the advance course shot in 2 days. I have never taken his basic course but i would think that he charges half of that? so that totals about $1200.00?/ or so.

[Matt P.]

So if you think the training program from that source is worth it, then why not book it? You had asked the question of what other people had thought and many people gave their $.02 which I thought was very valuable.

If I thought a particular training class for $3000 for 1 hour was worth it to me,( and it's not!!!) I would book it because it would work for me.

Is there another question you are trying to ask here?

[AlamoShooter]

ok , let me define this even more, we all pay a $3,000 for a race gun if not more but we dont invest on our shooting skills! hypothetically speaking, I'm talking a full course from basic to advance shooting for $1500.00? in Manny Brag and Matt Brukett one on one, Im thinkings 3 sessions for $350.00 each? a total of $1050.00 to get a full course. With Eric's advance course, he is charging about $800.00 for the advance course shot in 2 days. I have never taken his basic course but i would think that he charges half of that? so that totals about $1200.00?/ or so.

I think that is the smartest investment in Skills development I have seen in hand -gun

I look forward to having your shoe prints on my back side if I dont keep-up what you have planed.

Jamie

My coach will have my back side if I don't keep up ?Rite Coach?

[Religious Shooter]

I'd pay up to $500 for a full course --- 3-5 days that cover EVERYTHING.

[Neomet]

Since this seems to revolve specifically around Eric's course I thought I would put a link to it here so this is a little more factual (assuming this is the course that is being talked about.) Looks like it is 550 euros (@ $810) for a two day 1400 round minimum class.

http://www.ericgrauffel.com/

edited because I haven't had enough espresso to convert euros properly

Edited December 4, 2007 by Neomet

[Stefano]

Hi guys,

sorry but in my opinion you are doing a little bit of confusion ...

I've organized (and joined) a class with Eric (almost 2 years ago, level 1) and was an outstanding experience !

As said, Eric works toghether with his dad, with a class of 10 shooters max.

This means that meanwhile Eric is working dry-fire with 5 shooters, GG (his dad) works live-fire in the same time with the oters 5 shooters, without waist time !

The two sub-classes on 5 shooters are always changing teacher during the day, so everyone works several times in dry-fire and live-fire with both Eric & GG.

In my opinion the course is worth the money tha is costs: and you have to take in mind that Eric travels all over the world where you can put together a minimum group of students just to cover his fare: 1.100,00 Euro per day (almost 1.600,00 USD) plus travel, food & hotel costs.

In other words, if you put together (in your club) a group of 30 students, you can effort a course of 1 day for 3 different classes on 10 students, or a 3-days course for the same class of 10 students.

You have only to do the maths, and evaluate how much is the total costs per day for Eric, adding all the extra-costs (travel, food, hotel) and then divide it among the students ....

[Viggen]

Thanks Stefano for the specific information.

Eric is at the absolute top of this sport and I am sure his classes are at the same level. I have only had the chance to watch Eric's match video's and they are worth watching. He is relaxed smooth and doesn't hurry - and he is the IPSC Open World Champion, three times.

[Matt P.]

So to Summarize this thread, The cost versus the value of training is a personal decision.

[Stefano]

So to Summarize this thread, The cost versus the value of training is a personal decision.

Yes, but (from my own experience) the training without a solid-base of good technique is useless !

And you can gain a good-technique only attending a course with a good teacher !

I've experienced that Eric is fantastic as a teacher, but I'm not saying that he's the only one:

I am from Italy, and here in Europe we have only Eric and Saul ..... in the USA I think it's a different matter !

I'm sure there are A LOT of excellent Top Shooters that are doing shootig courses ....

But if you want to refer to a Top Teacher oversea .... returning to Eric's courses, what I'm trying to say (sorry for my bad english ...) is that if you can put together a group of 10/15 club-mates you can divide the extra costs for Eric's & GG's travel and you can organise a course with the 3 (probably 4 ...) times in a row World Champion at your shooting range !

Eric has absolutely NO problems to travel all over the world for a shooting course: this is his job !

Edited December 4, 2007 by Stefano

[Matt P.]

I am not taking anything away from Eric and his classes or the experinces that people have with him but, I think this thread was as follows;

Would you guys be willing to pay top dollar for IPSC traning? if so how much?

200 to 300? from other GM's or about $1,500 for FULL COURSE!! from the world champ that would last a lifetime!!

this would be from BASIC (LEVEL 1)TO ADVANCE(LEVEL 2 AND 3)

So I think people replied as to their thoughts of the value of training compared with it's cost.

[Stefano]

ok , let me define this even more, we all pay a $3,000 for a race gun if not more but we dont invest on our shooting skills! hypethetically speaking, I'm talking a full course from basic to advance shooting for $1500.00? in Manny Brag and Matt Brukett one on one, Im thinkings 3 sessions for $350.00 each? a total of $1050.00 to get a full course. With Eric's advance course, he is charging about $800.00 for the advance course shot in 2 days. I have never taken his basic course but i would think that he charges half of that? so that totals about $1200.00?/ or so.

If you are thinking to attend the 2008 Florida Open course with Eric, I can say that for me the price of 550 Euro for a two-days-course is quite good !

If you ask for an extra-day-course for the level 1, probably the total cost for a 3-days-course will be 825 Euro = 1.220 UDS that's almost the same of Manny Bragg & Matt Burkett.

If you ask to me:

"... is worth to spend 1.200+ USD for a shooting course when you can pay 3000 USD for a race-gun ?? ..."

my answer will be:

"..YES !.."

Edited December 4, 2007 by Stefano

[Neomet]

Personally, if it weren't for that little "My office closes in 10 days and I won't have a job" thing I would jump at the chance to do the course.

[DHTampa]

I'd pay the money for the training. The harder part for me would be to get the time.

Money spent on training with an M or GM who is a solid teacher as well as good shooter, which according to numerous accounts Eric G. is, is never wasted. I've been taught by Jerry Barnhart, Manny Bragg and Shannon Smith and they were all first class instructors (good people as well). Shannon was the best for me because at the time he was close and had the most flexible schedule. He also provided written feedback to each of his students that was specific to their strengths and weaknesses.

The beauty of paying for a course is that it is focused training. You leave the cell phone at home, tell the boss you are leaving the country and don't do anything but work on getting better. We all try to do that on our own but it's not the same.

The other part of training with a pro is that you don't know what you don't know, especially about your own shortcomings, and a critical eye can always improve your game.

But I digress...

[Stefano]

Other important thing to understand:

attending a course with a Top GM it's not a "finish" but only a "starting point".

In a few days you have a LOT of good input, but if you don't work hard on it in the months after ... well, it's only time & money waisted !

On the other side, we all know that working without a good tecnique it's only bad training, and instead of working in the bad way it's bett not working at all !

[XRe]

In my opinion, looking at any one course - or instructor - to be your one and only training experience is not a good way to go about it. In my experience, training often (at least yearly) and with two or three different (but good) instructors is the way to really go, if you want to get the most out of your training experiences. Also, pay attention to absolutely everything, take notes, review your notes in the months that follow, and practice like a madman on everything you learned. Otherwise, you just did what 95% of the people taking shooting training do.... pay the money, go to the class, and expect to magically just get better. As Stefano says - money wasted.

That said - $800-ish for a two day, 10 person class strikes me as a tad expensive. However, Eric is the reigning world champ, and can ask whatever fee he likes - if people are willing to pay the fee, then so be it. I've never trained with Eric, so I can't comment on his training style, or the class content.

Being in the US, you have a lot of potential options for training. Typically, you can get in a 2-day group class for $450-550 (expect a group of 10-12). You might be able to make the local arrangements for the class and get it at a discount or for free - and that saves your airfare, too. Depending on the instructor, there may be different rates and class sizes (for instance, Manny has really reasonable rates on his classes - I haven't been able to train with him, yet, either, so I can't comment...). I've taken 2-day classes w/ Matt Burkett, and a 1-day w/ Max, and gotten good stuff out of both. I've done private training w/ Matt, as well, and got a lot of out that, too. I'd like to take a Double Trouble... uh, I mean Double Impact class w/ both Max and Travis, at some point, if we can ever get an advanced level course put together in Central Texas.

In order to really shake the basics out and get things rolling, there are probably even local options that you're overlooking - local GM types who have a knack for instruction. A few 3-4 hour sessions with someone local to build up the basics could put you in a good position to take more advanced instruction. The only concern is that in a group environment, so-called "advanced" courses usually end up being only slightly more advanced than the basic courses (see above about people wasting their training dollars - they take a basic, and then show up at the advanced course next time, but still shoot the same as they did before the basic course). Eventually, after you advance far enough, small group (4-5) or 1-1 are your only options for good, solid training....

So, you're right that we pay a lot for gear and ammo, and not much on training as a general rule of thumb. I'd suggest budgeting in some cash for training in your off-season every year, and start building a relationship with a trainer or two - I'm a big supporter of that sort of arrangement.

[bwit]

There are lots of good teachers and they don't need to be a GM for most of us. Some of the NRA Instructors can help you also. It makes more sense to me to get training a time or two or three from a local person first as you, at this point, do not need the skills of the GM and many of the finer points he has, you are not ready for anyway. It's sort of like going to a Surgeon to learn how to clean a pheasant, if you catch my parallel. The GM is capable of so much more than the more basic instruction you may need now. So you save some money now on training to buy more ammo/guns. Later, when you are an A shooter, or so go with the more professional instructor.

My 2 cents

[Jasonub]

If 1500 dollars get you to be a world champ after the course without practice, then im in

[Radical Precision Designs]

Two years ago Eric Grauffel had a class prior to the Florida Open.

I inquired about it in the "Global Village" (IPSC's forum) and Eric offered me the last spot open for that session. That was very gracious of him. Especially since I wouldn't have been able to really take advantage of all that he would be offering, or take advantage at his level. Due to my own work schedules (getting guns ready for some shooters at that match) I had to decline, although I muse myself at what I might have been able to pick up there. I am sure that since it was a group class, composed of differently accomplished students/shooters, the gains varied similarly. But, I am also sure that while some were able to gain more than others, that all came out with something worthwhile. It is true, as I was told that most of the class was not taught by him personnally. Then again, I am positive that HE must have had enough confidence in his "delegates" to represent his own shooting philosophy, as part of his school. The fact that he was supervising/overseeing, it indicated that he was in top of it. Perhaps his direct teaching skills or patience to do so are not as impressive as his shooting skills. I am told that on ocassion he would interject during the class and specifically make some direct individual pointers where he thougth they were needed.

It is not just a good teacher he that directly teaches, but he who makes sure his teachings are implemented.

To some people the actual experience of being there, under the shadow of a "luminaire" is enough to make it worth the money. While "idol worship" is not the issue. The memory of it, and what ever was gleaned could last a lifetime. Who is to put a price on that.

On the other hand, if putting your nose to the grinder in a "meat and potatoes" regimen is what you want and need, there are several great teachers in this Sport that will fit the need. Some of them a lot more affordable. And while you may get a great schooling from them, it will never give you the "bragging rights" of having taken a class from the best, even if you didn't learn as much.

[XRe]

And while you may get a great schooling from them, it will never give you the "bragging rights" of having taken a class from the best, even if you didn't learn as much.

Of course, those bragging rights are worth soooo much while the guy who did the grind is pounding you into the ground at every match

Totally hear what you're saying, Venry - and its true. Some folks will take training just to say they took training from someone. If that's what they need to do, more power to 'em If your desire is to improve your shooting, though, taking a class from someone just to say you did is sort of a non sequitur, ya know?

[bwit]

Hey, I'm with Jasonub. I'll even pay TWO grand If I can be a GM with no practice - - maybe more. Heck, I'll probably save that much in bullets alone.

[Filishooter]

At my level, I may pay $1500 to even a local GM shooter IF its a multi-month long/half season type program where he can watch me in matches, mentor and progressively feed information and change drills as I am ready for them. $1500 for a 2 day class is to much money and would be too much information for me to take in all at once....it would probably leave me with more questions than answers.

It is similar to martial arts training. Some guys spend big bucks to train in seminars with big names, but the fighters that usually "get it" are the ones that train in a program and have an instructor that can help them find their own way.

[kevin c]

OK, for a slightly different perspective:

I've taken courses from Jarrett, Garcia, Burkett and Cooley. My sessions with Frank were one on one for two days. They were all great, they all had wonderful insights to offer, great techniques to practice. They all were inspiring teachers, and I and the other students went away raring to go.

It still took me 10 years to make A class in my favored division.

You get out of it not only what the instructors put into it, (the 500 or 1500 bucks worth of instructional effort from them) but also what you put into it at the time, AND afterwards.

I'm not saying the four figures I spent on classes were a waste. They were not. But for me, at least, the follow up on my part was lacking, and that meant I didn't get out of the classes what I could have, and that means it was an inefficient use of my money.

Kevin C

eta:

I've always heard the best teachers/trainers don't just teach facts, they teach you how to learn/train on your own. So it's on the student to get his/her money's worth, and that comes after the course, not during it.

Edited December 11, 2007 by kevin c

[Ramas]

It's like a shop. You are buying information and can save a lot of money and time discovering this information by yourself. What will you do with this info it's up to you. Simple.

[pjb45]

Self-Discovery works for some but rarely for most people. Instructors can provide information to get you higher on the learning curve higher and faster. Obviously I am pro-instructor.

I was talking with a well-known instructor today. He made some great points--our sport involves two concepts of the mechanics and mental discplince. Both need to be worked on to achieve great results. Take his class to learn more.

To quote Steve Anderson, "if you want to know what it takes to beat me--go out and practice, practice more than me, then you will beat me." Great GM all have some common traits--they do not fool themselves. The route to greatness is paved with practice--the mechanics and mental aspects.

So if $500 gets you to realize what, how and when to practice and do it correctly then maybe it is well worth the money. Because most of us are not going to get there without practicing correctly.

And yes, I took a two day class from Matt and it helped alot. I am ready for another class. Double Impact seems to be my next choice if possible. Manny does a great job also.

.