Match Etiquette

[Flatland Shooter]

At a recent match, while scoring targets the RO passed by a no shoot with a hole in it.

I've always felt that if I shot it, I earned it whether its was points or penalties. When I notice the RO misses a penalty on my course of fire, I bring it to his/her attention just like I would if he accidently called that "A" hit a "C". And I assumed others felt the same.

Now for the question, as a taper I brought the hole to the attention of the RO. Later the shooter took me aside and advised that since I was a new shooter (I've only been doing this since 1985) he felt it was his responsibility to point out that I had breached "match etiquette". If the scorer and the range officer both miss a penalty, its no business of anyone else to bring it up.

I'm not trying to cause problems but is this really proper match etiquette? Do other shooters feel the same way? If so, I need to keep my mouth shut in the future and let the cards fall where they may.

Bill

p.s. Not having taken the etiquette lesson to heart, later in the match I pointed out to the RO that a no shoot hit cut the line giving the shooter credit for the "A" hit behind the no shoot. No one complained about this bit of interference.

[Skywalker]

If the scorer and the range officer both miss a penalty, its no business of anyone else to bring it up.

And then what happens?

that while scoring the next shooter the RO or the scorer might notice the NS and will give a penalty to the wrong competitor ... this is wrong on so many levels ...

No range/match etiquette broken, Bill, looks someone else wasn't adult enough to be responsible for his actions.

[G-ManBart]

You alerted the RO to the fact that a no-shoot had a hole in it. It's up to the RO to determine if that hit was caused by the shooter who'd just finished the COF or not. It's entirely possible that the RO saw the hole during the course of fire and realized it was from a previous shooter and hadn't been pasted. Maybe not likely, but possible.

I think many of us would have done exactly what you did and any shooter that gives you a hard time about it has issues. Like your mentioning the edge hit on the no-shoot that gave the shooter the points on the target behind it, nobody seems to mind if you're standing behind the line and see steel not set, or a hole in a target that wasn't pasted...this shouldn't be any different.

[Flexmoney]

You did fine in my book.

RO's make mistakes. What I want, as a shooter, is for my score to reflect what I shot. Good...bad...or, ugly.

Heck, the rule book even has a section in it for 3rd party arbitrations.

[Joe4d]

Obviously the clowns integrity is worth less to him than a few points at a shooting match, tell him to get bent.

[rtr]

I've had people react similarly, really sad IMO. You get what you earned.

[vluc]

If I'm the paster, I ask if the RO got that target. Could have been an oversight. IF you as the shooter get mad, well, you just have to get glad again.

If I'm the RO, whether alone or with a scorer, I appreciate anything a shooter does that helps out. Then I mentally kick myself for anything I missed and do better the next time.

[spook]

When I notice the RO misses a penalty on my course of fire, I bring it to his/her attention just like I would if he accidently called that "A" hit a "C"

Exactly. You did well. Of course for the shooter it sucks, because he shot a penalty. But such is life/IPSC shooting.

You would have done the same if the RO scored a miss and you could see it was a "D". Bet the shooter wouldn't take you aside then...

[AlamoShooter]

I a found my self as a taper tunning my back or moving to another target ....so that I would not know if the no shoot got scored or not. having double plugs in the ears helps.

The best thing I found was to ask for !! Wight ! Tape! before the Ro arrived at the target.

The thing that eats at me two years later is being at a shoot , and having a !"Good" Stage! and after having my copy of the score sheet in my hand & over hearing my friends talking about two holes on a no shoot that did not get scored. When I asked "On my Run"? They were very quick to say "you don't know if the holes are yours or some-one Else's" = I didn't know But I wish they had spoken up so that I could have known. It still tastes bad when I think about it

Tape! Who Has some Wight Tape! gona need the Witght tape

Edited October 24, 2007 by AlamoShooter

[DaBlaster]

Call it what you want, but if you shot it you earned it!!!!

If you're shooting with a buddy thats the same class, its like stealing points from him. and can

alter the outcome of the match. Same with doubles, don't wanna get started on that one though!!

I'd fess up to it, cause if you win or place in your class, I'd feel as though I

won by cheating. But not everyone is like that, I've seen lots of "Instances"

where this stuff happens, and usually the Range Gods get revenge somehow or another!!

Manny

[Catfish]

you shoot it, you earned it.

Sounds to me like you did the right thing.

[zhunter]

Many times on this board I have seen parallels made between shooting and golf. Well in golf, we call penalties on ourselves, I see this as no different, as has been said several times previously, you shoot it, it is yours. Man up.

Dude, you did the right thing!! We do it all the time around here. Buddy or not, you shoot it, you get it!!

[boz1911]

The one thing I like about this sport is it's time and points, equally scored by all. You did the right thing and if it had been me shooting, please do not screw me out of my well deserved noshoot or penalty. I shot it and I want it!!!

[Ed Deegan]

Not as a can you top this, but I called my wife for a No-shoot at her first match.

I would expect the same of anyone.

[EZ Bagger]

Since we're talking etiquette, is it really the taper's job to be scoring the match?

I would think etiquette would be to let the shooter know that there are hits there and to let the shooter decide whether to man up or not.

I agree with the man up part, by the way.

[boz1911]

Since we're talking etiquette, is it really the taper's job to be scoring the match?

I would think etiquette would be to let the shooter know that there are hits there and to let the shooter decide whether to man up or not.

I agree with the man up part, by the way.

No the taper is not scoring, just pointing out the noshoot to the RO as he should. The RO should make the call at that point. It is not the shooter's decision on how it's scored, at least I hope not!

[XRe]

I'd fess up to it, cause if you win or place in your class, I'd feel as though I

won by cheating.

In fact... my very first experience shooting with Manny, on the very first stage, he tagged a no-shoot. I think he told the RO about 7 times that he hit that no-shoot and to make sure it got on his score sheet.... After that, whenever I've been presented with such a situation, I've thought to myself "WWMD"....

But not everyone is like that, I've seen lots of "Instances"

where this stuff happens, and usually the Range Gods get revenge somehow or another!!

Sometimes it takes a year or so, even, but that karma comes back... usually in spades, too.

BTW - I make it a point to mind my own business when it comes to scoring. When its my scoring, I'm very careful to be sure the correct score arrives on the score card that I sign (for better or worse). When its not my score, I let the RO do his job - its not for me to determine the other guy's score. I have, on occasion, pointed out an error to an RO when they called something blatantly wrong, if it goes in favor of the shooter (ie, an A that was called a C, when its not close). If I come across a no-shoot, I'll stand there with a paster on my hand until the RO passes - I've never seen a no-shoot not called at a big match, though - usually the ROs are pretty sharp about it. That's my personal ethic, YMMV.... I figure the shooter can manage his/her own range karma better than I can, and he/she will get what's coming to them eventually if they're less than ethical about it....

Edited October 24, 2007 by XRe

[boz1911]

Not as a can you top this, but I called my wife for a No-shoot at her first match.

I would expect the same of anyone.

I'd would have called it on her too..........of course she ain't my wife

[Sean Gaines]

I agree you shoot it you get it. I have seen a person, won't name name, but he hit a no shoot while I was RO'ing and the no shoot was about 3 to 4' in front of the target he was shooting at, and he stood in front of the no shoot that he hit, trying to block it from my vision, and made a big scene about how he missed that target trying to distract me from the no shoot that he had hit, that he was trying to hide the target with his body, and had a white piece of tape in his hand. so I just walked by him without looking at the hidden target and called a Alpha mike and no shoot. I knew what he was trying to do, no one else caught it, they were to busy taping. He played it off, like thats were that other bullet went, but he was trying to Cheat!!!! Some people will play it off and don't take responsiblilty for thier actions, true in life, and in sports.

PK

[Clyde]

I've always felt that if I shot it, I earned it whether its was points or penalties.

+1

[STUGOTSIG]

I agree you shoot it you get it. I have seen a person, won't name name, but he hit a no shoot while I was RO'ing and the no shoot was about 3 to 4' in front of the target he was shooting at, and he stood in front of the no shoot that he hit, trying to block it from my vision, and made a big scene about how he missed that target trying to distract me from the no shoot that he had hit, that he was trying to hide the target with his body, and had a white piece of tape in his hand. so I just walked by him without looking at the hidden target and called a Alpha mike and no shoot. I knew what he was trying to do, no one else caught it, they were to busy taping. He played it off, like thats were that other bullet went, but he was trying to Cheat!!!! Some people will play it off and don't take responsiblilty for thier actions, true in life, and in sports.

PK

Doesn't that just scream..."DQ"!!!?

I mean, a white paster in hand?

RO's call, not the shooter on manning up. Touch that target you just shot buddy and it's NO POINTS.

[EZ Bagger]

I agree you shoot it you get it. I have seen a person, won't name name, but he hit a no shoot while I was RO'ing and the no shoot was about 3 to 4' in front of the target he was shooting at, and he stood in front of the no shoot that he hit, trying to block it from my vision, and made a big scene about how he missed that target trying to distract me from the no shoot that he had hit, that he was trying to hide the target with his body, and had a white piece of tape in his hand. so I just walked by him without looking at the hidden target and called a Alpha mike and no shoot. I knew what he was trying to do, no one else caught it, they were to busy taping. He played it off, like thats were that other bullet went, but he was trying to Cheat!!!! Some people will play it off and don't take responsiblilty for thier actions, true in life, and in sports.

PK

If this were anything other than joking around at a local match where everyone knew he was going to get the NS...DQ.

[Carlos]

You did fine in my book.

RO's make mistakes. What I want, as a shooter, is for my score to reflect what I shot. Good...bad...or, ugly.

Heck, the rule book even has a section in it for 3rd party arbitrations.

Flex is right. And the "newbie" got it right too. Shooting since 1985? There should be an award for that.

Don't you love it when someone sees fit to "correct" you - and they turn out to be in the wrong? Like the times I've been practicing mag changes in the safe area - with unloaded mags - and was "corrected" (thanks). Or my first Nationals when I went into the safe area to unbag & holster, while I had loaded mags in mag holders but never touched them - and was "corrected" (thanks again).

Edited October 24, 2007 by Carlos

[boz1911]

I forget to mention when one of the usual cast of suspects I shoot with see you've tagged a no shoot, you and everyone else within 3 stages will hear "WHITE PASTER!!!!!!!!"

[XD Niner]

I managed to just barely wing a No Shoot at last weekend's Monster Match. I suspect the RO might have overlooked it and assumed that this particular NS had three eyes with the dark one nearly dead center in what would have been the upper A zone. I swear that little buzzard jumped up out of nowhere to get in the way of my near perfectly aimed shot on the target behind him and then sank back down into his original position. I still have the match CSI squad trying to figure out how he refastened those staples without any hands but there must be a logical explanation because that's clearly what happened. Fortunately, I had let a third shot go at the back target just in case my supremely logical explanation didn't fly.

Regardless, I did point out to the RO and scorer the alleged, apparent, near micro-scopic .38 Super caliber hole in the white target. They had already noticed it but it could have been overlooked because they were walking up the alley between the two sets of targets as they were scoring. Like others have said, you get what you earn and should accept that. I wouldn't sell my integrity for 10 points and I know 99% of our fellow shooters feel the same.

Now if Smitty would just get the Las Vegas CSI team to be on call for his matches all would be cool.

Edited October 24, 2007 by XD Niner