blsexton Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 So there I was, at the NC State IPSC meet, my first major match I'd ever shot. (Meaning I've never shot a match where my rounds were chrono'ed) and all the sudden from out of nowhere 4 guys with handheld video cameras storm through the stage between squads...it was quick, silent, and I 'think' deadly. Nobody was on the range and these guys came and basically did a walk-through with a video camera. This was on Saturday afternoon, with a day of shooting still left on Sunday. So, am I to assume these guys were Sunday shooters showing up to have a nice look and then go home and set up for the stages? Nobody said anything to these guys, so I am just guessing it's OK. The RO saw them, so I'm sure there was no big faux-pas going on. Is this legal, and if so is it what most of the good guys do? Personally I thought it was a bunch of hooey, but no-one told them to stop. Do you think it would be a help for me to do this next match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 If they had permission from the RM or CRO, then it was a bit rude, but otherwise not prohibited. If they had no permission, they should have been removed with extreme prejudice, with possible DQ under rule US 8.7.5 It can be helpfull to show up early, and scope out the stages. Some matches will not let you on the grounds while the match is not underway. Some will not allow anyone on the stages even when no squads are present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 At most major matches, you are allowed to look the stages over if you show up early. You seldom are allowed to play with any of the props though. (No working the activating props and such.) Had a squad been on that stage, then it wouldn't have been right (only the squad that is "on" a particular stage should be on the stage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 I don't see a problem as they did this between squads and the match was most certainly in progress. However I've also seen the stages off-limits between squads, my guess is due to a history of twits activating props in past matches. This would be covered in the pre-match meeting. Folks will also show up the day before the match, typically the day the staff shoots, to scope the stages. Those who want to win will do their best to be prepared. I do the same thing; "programming" complicated stages on the day we set them up. I just have to be aware that any stage can be changed/tweaked before the match starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 This is crap. Just the latest way to overthink stages. When stages are published and just look for anything weird (start positions, carrying anything, etc.). Otherwise, guess what. Every stage is made of the same cardboard targets and steel plates that are at your home range. Shoot YOUR match. That said, I like the rule that they had at I think the 99 Area 6 at Ant Hill. No one on the stage other than the squad on the stage. The back of the bays were taped off. If seen forward of that line, it's a match DQ. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 You cant make the stages off limits and keep the match fair unless no one on the match staff is shooting. Now try to get a whole staff of RO's that arnt shooting. An IDPA club tried the secret squirrel crap with indoor shoot house and darkness stages, making the range off limits to shooters until lights were off and it was time for you to LAMR. Needless to say all the top finishers were allways match staff and people who built the stage. So the dark stages are still done but if you wanna show up early and scope em have at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 I worked the NC Sectional USPSA match and the only time we had any issue was when the last Sat morn squad was running late and the first Sat afternoon squad was wandering onto the stage. But the first time we said something, the afternoon squad moved back and let us get the morning squad done. Almost everyone who can onto the stage during downtimes to prep or tape asked first. The whole secret squirrel crap only works for the first squad, after that everyone is telling their friends what to expect and its no longer very secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 This is crap. Just the latest way to overthink stages. When stages are published and just look for anything weird (start positions, carrying anything, etc.). Otherwise, guess what. Every stage is made of the same cardboard targets and steel plates that are at your home range. Shoot YOUR match. That said, I like the rule that they had at I think the 99 Area 6 at Ant Hill. No one on the stage other than the squad on the stage. The back of the bays were taped off. If seen forward of that line, it's a match DQ. Rich Rich, The way ant hill did the 99 area 6 was crap. I was there and it caused so much irratation amongst the shooters it was rediculous. Also that match was not a area level match( others opinions ) That was one of the reasons the area 6 was moved a year early. As for the guys with the videotape at NC sectional, I was shooting sat. afternoon and they ventured up on our stage about half way thru it. The videod a couple of guys shooting and the waited until we were thru with the stage. As soon as our last shooter had been scored and the stage taped they asked if they could go onto the stage. The RO said no problem, they were courteous to us and everyone around, they laugh and kidded with each other all afternoon and got in no ones way of shootingg. I knwo most of these guys and they are not top end shooters, they compete against themselves for bragging rights and to see who buys the beer.( what the sport is about, to promote shooting and commradery) They shot the next morning and they once again wer in good spirits, I dont know that any 1 of them burnt down the match or even placed for that matter. At the end of the match they all packed up, shook hands, told everyone that they had a good time and that it was a good match and left. I worked most of the match doing various things and other than 2 dq's( neither was intentional but rules are rules) The match ran well. We had some of the better shooters lost to the 3-gun nationals but thems the breaks. Overall I was satisfied with the way the match ran and the staff of the match handled problems as we had some of the ro staff get sick before the match and not be able to attend. This led to some double duty for others but everyone stepped up and made it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 It is my understanding you cannot walk a stage with anything that might be construed as an aiming aid or any part of a gun. I myself have been careful enough that I even put my water bottle down before walking a stage. Where does a video camera fit into all of this??? If I am not shooting, I always ask permission prior to going on any stage and never interfere with any squads. Never had an RO say no and being courteous goes a long way....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 There were people doing this at the IDPA Nationals this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I had to again miss the NC Sectional because of family events but I believe that those posting here may be missing a very solid reason for the guys with the video cameras. I see many shooters show up with video cameras and video the stages just so they can take them home and use the ideas to improve their local matches. If video of the stage were an advantage, you would see the top dogs doing it and I have not seen that. You will see the super squad walk the stages some on Friday afternoon and take some notes but I have never seen one use a video camera although most of them have cameras since when they shoot the match they have someone running the camera. Charles Bond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I had to again miss the NC Sectional because of family events but I believe that those posting here may be missing a very solid reason for the guys with the video cameras. I see many shooters show up with video cameras and video the stages just so they can take them home and use the ideas to improve their local matches. If video of the stage were an advantage, you would see the top dogs doing it and I have not seen that. You will see the super squad walk the stages some on Friday afternoon and take some notes but I have never seen one use a video camera although most of them have cameras since when they shoot the match they have someone running the camera.Charles Bond That's why I do it when I can remember my camera. Otherwise I might remember the round count, but forget how the stage was set-up. Only about 5 of the local 60 shooters from my club attend major matches, so I like to bring a stage home when I can for them to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 It is my understanding you cannot walk a stage with anything that might be construed as an aiming aid or any part of a gun. I myself have been careful enough that I even put my water bottle down before walking a stage. Where does a video camera fit into all of this??? IIRC, that is during your walk-through prior to shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 So there I was, at the NC State IPSC meet, my first major match I'd ever shot. (Meaning I've never shot a match where my rounds were chrono'ed) and all the sudden from out of nowhere 4 guys with handheld video cameras storm through the stage between squads...it was quick, silent, and I 'think' deadly. Nobody was on the range and these guys came and basically did a walk-through with a video camera. This was on Saturday afternoon, with a day of shooting still left on Sunday.So, am I to assume these guys were Sunday shooters showing up to have a nice look and then go home and set up for the stages? Nobody said anything to these guys, so I am just guessing it's OK. The RO saw them, so I'm sure there was no big faux-pas going on. Is this legal, and if so is it what most of the good guys do? Personally I thought it was a bunch of hooey, but no-one told them to stop. Do you think it would be a help for me to do this next match? To answer your question, I don't think videoing the stages is really going to help that much, but you can try and see if it does. You really dont know unless you try it. if you are going to do it, I would do a complete walk through first, figure out the way to shoot it, and then start videoing, and give yourself notes, or speak into the camera while your are videoing so that you can remember the stage, especially if you are going over 18 of them like the nationals. One problem with video is that some targets may appear farther than they actually are, so keep that in mind when you are giving yourself notes. Personally I think videoing yourself at local matches would be a bigger help, because you can see things that need to be corrected before you go to a major match. You can do all the video you want, if allowed, but it all boils down to execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Some folks like to take home a video record of what the stage looked like, so that when they view the footage of them shooting later, they can remember what it looked like first person (or to show other folks the same thing). Not everyone can afford a trick 1st person video camera rig Frankly, unless the guys were holding up the show, or doing it while a squad was trying to do their official walk through or shooting the stage, etc, I don't see what the big deal is. And I agree w/ the sentiment that videoing a stage to try to somehow rehearse it back at the hotel room or something is a big waste of time.... EXCEPT in the case of a so-called "computer stage" like we used to see at the Nationals, where there'd be a device (not really a computer in the fashion that we know it) that would activate targets at prescribed intervals, etc. Videoing that sort of stage in action gives you a way to take a closer look at the target movements without having to sit on the range for two hours trying to pick it apart.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotcha Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 (edited) As long as they did not interfere with the running of the stage...............it should not be an issue. If you choose not to look at a stage prior to shooting it that to me is a big mistake. Keeping stages off limits has always created a problem. When the stages are not off limits I have never seen problem. Just my nickel Martin G Edited October 18, 2007 by gotcha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotcha Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 This is crap. Just the latest way to overthink stages. When stages are published and just look for anything weird (start positions, carrying anything, etc.). Otherwise, guess what. Every stage is made of the same cardboard targets and steel plates that are at your home range. Shoot YOUR match. That said, I like the rule that they had at I think the 99 Area 6 at Ant Hill. No one on the stage other than the squad on the stage. The back of the bays were taped off. If seen forward of that line, it's a match DQ. Rich Rich, The way ant hill did the 99 area 6 was crap. I was there and it caused so much irratation amongst the shooters it was rediculous. Also that match was not a area level match( others opinions ) That was one of the reasons the area 6 was moved a year early. As for the guys with the videotape at NC sectional, I was shooting sat. afternoon and they ventured up on our stage about half way thru it. The videod a couple of guys shooting and the waited until we were thru with the stage. As soon as our last shooter had been scored and the stage taped they asked if they could go onto the stage. The RO said no problem, they were courteous to us and everyone around, they laugh and kidded with each other all afternoon and got in no ones way of shootingg. I knwo most of these guys and they are not top end shooters, they compete against themselves for bragging rights and to see who buys the beer.( what the sport is about, to promote shooting and commradery) They shot the next morning and they once again wer in good spirits, I dont know that any 1 of them burnt down the match or even placed for that matter. At the end of the match they all packed up, shook hands, told everyone that they had a good time and that it was a good match and left. I worked most of the match doing various things and other than 2 dq's( neither was intentional but rules are rules) The match ran well. We had some of the better shooters lost to the 3-gun nationals but thems the breaks. Overall I was satisfied with the way the match ran and the staff of the match handled problems as we had some of the ro staff get sick before the match and not be able to attend. This led to some double duty for others but everyone stepped up and made it happen. Martin I take offense to that "all the big shooters where gone" remark.......I was there !! Martin G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjbine Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 As long as they get permission from the RO and does not hold up any squad, then it is not a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 As long as they aren't interfering with another squad, as far as I'm concerned they can do whatever they want. It really isn't giving them a real advantage, only a perceived one and as we all know - perception is not reality. Walling the stages off is a loser to me as well. I just don't see the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 and as we all know - perception is not reality. Desire Alters Perception Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Some folks like to take home a video record of what the stage looked like, so that when they view the footage of them shooting later, they can remember what it looked like first person (or to show other folks the same thing). Not everyone can afford a trick 1st person video camera rig Frankly, unless the guys were holding up the show, or doing it while a squad was trying to do their official walk through or shooting the stage, etc, I don't see what the big deal is. And I agree w/ the sentiment that videoing a stage to try to somehow rehearse it back at the hotel room or something is a big waste of time.... EXCEPT in the case of a so-called "computer stage" like we used to see at the Nationals, where there'd be a device (not really a computer in the fashion that we know it) that would activate targets at prescribed intervals, etc. Videoing that sort of stage in action gives you a way to take a closer look at the target movements without having to sit on the range for two hours trying to pick it apart.... I still have nightmares about that d!*n computer controlled, pneumatic operated range. That range always had standing room only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Some folks like to take home a video record of what the stage looked like, so that when they view the footage of them shooting later, they can remember what it looked like first person (or to show other folks the same thing). Not everyone can afford a trick 1st person video camera rig Frankly, unless the guys were holding up the show, or doing it while a squad was trying to do their official walk through or shooting the stage, etc, I don't see what the big deal is. And I agree w/ the sentiment that videoing a stage to try to somehow rehearse it back at the hotel room or something is a big waste of time.... A big +1 for me You can learn even after the match if you have a good video / or memory. video has helped me quit a bit this past year. With the prematch video you can pick your plan apart after you shot the match, even it you did not get a video you you shooting it. I used video of the IPACT match to show our club shooters what they missed out on. Allso you can watch your shooting with a stop watch to time movement off of how fast the "other" guys are moving. Every time someone tapes a big match and takes it home = the odds are they will bring a new shooter with them the next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blsexton Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 THanks for all the help and input into the original post I made. It's great to get some info from folks in the know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 We just got back from the Gator shoot, and me and the Paper Killer shared Video work for each other. As for me it is a big help after I get home to figure out how and what to train on. I have to practice and learn to be any good at all. I have already gone over the video several times. For one thing I need to louse the extra money belt and a better hair cut. I have the lost points totaled off of a perfect =down 106 out of a possible 1675 > 25 more points than the best shot score for each stage > 36.1 seconds slower than the best runs on each stage, including two brain farts worth 7.6 seconds in clearing bad brass I should have left at home, and Turning my Dot on with the clock running . The video let me know exactly what I lost by being Stupid The video all-so let me know that my stage plans were good or bad, > good < I think as far as Monday morning Quarter Backing. Now I have to go run laps for being slow and stupid,= the prof in on the tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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