2007 IDPA Nationals Underway

[rvb]

do we now need to start practicing shooting the 2inch side of 2X4's at ten yards as a practice drill?

You mean to imply there was a shooting challenge at the National Championship?

As I said earlier, the match was full of little subtle "gotchas," and this stage was one of those that may not make the match for you, but if you didn't put some thought into it and/or tried to rush vs accuracy, it could sure hurt you. A stage mixing high speed close targets w/ high-accuracy targets and a transition to prone is a great shooting test, imo. Mix in some possible "risk vs reward" decisions [depending on division and mag capacity] and you have a great championship-level stage despite appearing so simple at a glance. just reinforces my opinion that Ted and crew put on an excellent match.

-rvb

[Mayonaise]

Non-standard targets have been a part of IDPA since the beginning. I've used Newbolds, bowling pins, balloons (in the COM -0 ring) as triggers etc.... IDPA rewards accuracy as as long as it makes sense for a scenario or standards I've never had a problem with them. They just have to work reliably and not become an "administrative time killer", resetting or dealing with reshoots etc...

Thanks Mark for acknowledging the "Same for everyone" deal. Every time I've heard that in a big IDPA match it is usually an excuse for a poorly designed COF or one that is clearly outside of the rulebook.

Regarding "gotchas" being against the wheel gunners. Well I hate to remind people but you are only competing against shooters in your division. All the wheel gunners were in the same boat, so to speak (not to be confused with "same for everybody"). Comparing scores or numbers of reloads in a COF with people in different divisions is pointless. There's no high overall as much as people want there to be one. Nothing against Donnie, or anyone else who's had the lowest score recorded. But it's quite possible that the CDP shooters had to perform more reloads resulting in higher stage times. It's comparing apples and oranges. Funny how it comes up year after year.

Edited October 3, 2007 by Mayonaise

[Melissa Ann]

Same here, I was also shooting a round gun. I did a tac load before going down and shifted into low gear to get both legs out first and then the paper. The last thing that I wanted was to miss the legs and have do reload on my belly. The further to the right that you placed your head when you went down made the right leg a little easier to shoot but it was still a thinner target than the left side. Got it done and breathed a sigh of relief.

I saw a few round gunners do the tac load before going prone and watched them nail the legs. It was beautiful! Heck, I'm just a marksman (in ESP) and I hit the first leg with the first shot and it took me two shots to get the second leg. I thought it was a great stage and a lot of fun.

Regarding the newbold targets, we've been using them at an indoor range for 3 years now and I've never seen a round go straight through them without knocking the plates over. It took me a couple rounds to knock one of the newbolds over on Stage 2, but I also know I put a hole in the cardboard and not in the newbold itself. At that close range, muzzle blast would have blown a majority of the pasters off with each shooter. We thought the newbolds would be an interesting way to do a bad breath distance target without having to use 2" masking tape to paste the targets. When I was watching on the bays, I thought they were working quite well.

FWIW, we use the newbolds at the indoor range to simulate steel plates, but without the potential spatter/rics breaking lights or spitting back to the shooters. I really like them a lot.

Have a great day!

melissa

[freeidaho]

Non-standard targets have been a part of IDPA since the beginning. I've used Newbolds, bowling pins, balloons (in the COM -0 ring) as triggers etc.... IDPA rewards accuracy as as long as it makes sense for a scenario or standards I've never had a problem with them. They just have to work reliably and not become an "administrative time killer", resetting or dealing with reshoots etc...

Thanks Mark for acknowledging the "Same for everyone" deal. Every time I've heard that in a big IDPA match it is usually an excuse for a poorly designed COF or one that is clearly outside of the rulebook.

Regarding "gotchas" being against the wheel gunners. Well I hate to remind people but you are only competing against shooters in your division. All the wheel gunners were in the same boat, so to speak (not to be confused with "same for everybody"). Comparing scores or numbers of reloads in a COF with people in different divisions is pointless. There's no high overall as much as people want there to be one. Nothing against Donnie, or anyone else who's had the lowest score recorded. But it's quite possible that the CDP shooters had to perform more reloads resulting in higher stage times. It's comparing apples and oranges. Funny how it comes up year after year.

Mark,

Great post, thank you.

But I have learned from my revolver friends that they do indeed compare themselves to the bottom feeders. I agree it is a tough choice, but I can see their point a bit. A fellow that posts under COF and I used to butt heads a bit about revolvers, (not to be confused with being a butt head,) until I fully understood that the revolver shooters truly compare themselves to everyone else, just like the other divisions. I know everyone says with a wink that we shouldn''t do that, but it is human nature.

I did see revolver shooters tac-reload before going prone, and nail the legs and the paper. Both revolvers and CDP required a reload, where ESP and SSP did not unless they missed more than once. The guys in ESP with 9 round mags, had to be perfect or tac-reload too. It was a double edge sword for many. I got to watch everyone shoot the stage. Big fun ! ! !

kr

Edited October 3, 2007 by freeidaho

[Gregg K]

Ken

I enjoyed your drop targets on that stage. I was admiring your craftsmanship while I was resetting the targets, very nicely done. Thank you for all the work that your poured into designing and making the targets. It's also great that your share your designs on your web site. Don't worry with those that thought that they were too hard, accuracy is a skill that needs to be tested. If they thought that they were too hard, there is a saying from some where that goes something like "put on your big girl pants and deal with it".

[freeidaho]

Ken

I enjoyed your drop targets on that stage. I was admiring your craftsmanship while I was resetting the targets, very nicely done. Thank you for all the work that your poured into designing and making the targets. It's also great that your share your designs on your web site. Don't worry with those that thought that they were too hard, accuracy is a skill that needs to be tested. If they thought that they were too hard, there is a saying from some where that goes something like "put on your big girl pants and deal with it".

Gregg,

Thank you Sir ! ! ! It was my pleasure, each and every second of it!

I was on my best behavior, so no big girl comments from me, but I might have thought it.

Some shooters tended to make more of the leg targets and the mover than they really were. After seeing the target on the mover consistently get shot on the leading side mostly, it was clear most people were leading it way too much. Not something they could know, unless they noticed where the pasters were, but something I noticed when chaning targets.

I hope you had a super time ! ! !

Ken Reed

Edited October 3, 2007 by freeidaho

[Jim Watson]

One of the clubs here got a Newbold Popper for indoor shooting. It is not very consistent, either it sags back and won't stand, or it is "hard set" and a slick smallbore roundnose won't always knock it down. OK for restricted conditions, but I would not count on it for a major match.

[Chills1994]

Mayonaisse wrote:

Nothing against Donnie, or anyone else who's had the lowest score recorded. But it's quite possible that the CDP shooters had to perform more reloads resulting in higher stage times. It's comparing apples and oranges. Funny how it comes up year after year.

Amen to that brother! This is not meant to be a slam against Donnie B., but like you said comparing minor PF 9mm loads shot out of an all steel 1911 with a capacity of either 9 + 1, or 10 + 1 to major PF .45 ACP loads shot out of, well, some .45 even if it is plastic versus all steel which only starts out holding 8 + 1 is APPLES TO ORANGES.

A couple of years ago I took a class taught by Dave S. . At that time, I had some gripes about sandbagging in IDPA and asked Dave point blank "Do you think that all the semi-auto divisions should have the same classifier times?" He replied with something along the lines of "ESP and SSP probably could have the same times but CDP because of the higher PF loads should always have different classifier times. Every time I have shot a CDP classifier, my times are slower."

I haven't taken that close of a look at this year's Nat's COF's, so I don't know if any were 18 round stages. If there were any, then definitely the advantage goes to the SSP and ESP guns. CDP guys will have to reload twice when the CoF round count goes past 17, or if they make up a shot. Disadvantage CDP.

For those that would like to see a more APPLES TO APPLES comparison we can always poke and prod Donnie B. to shoot USPSA's Single Stack Classic at PASA Park (Quincy, IL) in the spring. I don't think he has shot it before.

I know Dave S. has shot it at least the last two years. Rob L, well, he's always there.

About that shoot the legs from under the SUV stage.... my kudos to the stage designer there (Walt Rauch?).

So much of IDPA is shot from a standing position it is nice to "paradigm shift" the shooting.

(The last time I shot prone was as a teenager. I had a big hot heavy coat on, a tourniquet of a sling wrapped around my left bicep and a thick leather glove on my left hand, and a Remington 540 (IIRC) against my right shoulder.)

I can see now why Walt Rauch and Clint Smith both advocate practicing shooting from positions other than upright on your own two feet.

[Fireant]

Forget the big girl pants, I just wish some people would take the diapers off and put on some grown up pants and have a discussion and not throw insults everywhere. I was not there to see it in person, but just wondered about the stage. Thanks for those grown up replys and everybody else get a life. I shoot anything I can locally with a handgun and try not to put anyone or any game down. Please do the same.

[freeidaho]

The stage in question was Stage 6, written and lived by Walt Rauch. There are two targets to the right of the car engaged from cover while standing. Then, the shooter must go prone and shoot out the black leg of each far target. When the leg is hit, the target falls sideways and the shooter must put two rounds into the cardboard. There's no specified order for the far targets other than the leg must be shot before the cardboard. It was a fun stage with a trap set for revolver shooters.

I was shooting a revolver, and that stage didn't help.

The supports were 4" wide, but on a 45 degree ange, making them 2" wide, BUT, when I went prone they looked like were 1/2" wide.

Just a teeny correction. The legs were 3/8" x 4" steel flat bar. If the target is directly facing the shooter, since the leg was turned 45 degrees to keep the splatter away from the shooters, the legs presented a target that was 3" wide and 16" tall, that could be knocked down with a 22LR round.

The right hand target was not directly facing the shooter and its leg appeared smaller. The left target was pretty straight on to the shooter. I suspect this arrangement was not accidental.

An excellent stage for IDPA.

Ken Reed

[Chills1994]

rvb wrote:

You mean to imply there was a shooting challenge at the National Championship?

Dude! That makes me laugh every time I read that. Thanks! I need that.

[rubberneck]

One of the clubs here got a Newbold Popper for indoor shooting. It is not very consistent, either it sags back and won't stand, or it is "hard set" and a slick smallbore roundnose won't always knock it down. OK for restricted conditions, but I would not count on it for a major match.

I wouldn't count on the big Newbolds at a major match as they do tend to sag when they have been shot a lot. The Newbolds shot at Nationals were the 8 inch round ones, and they changed them in between morning and afternoon squads before the got shoot up that much. I was shooting 115 grain factory ammo and every Newbold I engaged went down quickly with a single hit. I don't recall anyone in my squad having a problem or complaint with them during the match. If they did, I wasn't in ear shot when they brought it up. It is interesting to hear that people had problems with them. For us they were a non factor provided that you hit them.

[Jane]

I don't recall anyone in my squad having a problem or complaint with them during the match. If they did, I wasn't in ear shot when they brought it up. It is interesting to hear that people had problems with them. For us they were a non factor provided that you hit them.

The day the SO/staff shot (Wednesday) it was perhaps 15 degrees hotter than the rest of the shooting days. One of the guys on the squad I shot with got a reshoot after putting several wheelgun rounds into the ones on stage 2 and having them just sit there intact, laughing at him. It was about 1:30 or 2PM, so I'm guessing the heat may have softened them a bit and been a factor.

[jm9x23]

I shot the stage two newbolds and hit the left one 4 times and it didn't go down. The SO stopped me and looked at the target which turned out that someone set it backwards. I got a reshoot and it went down fine as did all the others in the match. I was shooting the 9x23 w/130 gr MG.

[RePete]

I shot the stage two newbolds and hit the left one 4 times and it didn't go down. The SO stopped me and looked at the target which turned out that someone set it backwards. I got a reshoot and it went down fine as did all the others in the match. I was shooting the 9x23 w/130 gr MG.

I was shooting revolver (38Sp +P) and hit the 2 on stage 2 with 1 shot each abd they flew.

[Gryff]

The fully formatted final results are now online (including sub-categories, most accurate, division champions, etc):

http://www.idpa.com/2007_match.asp

-Jim

[Singlestack Wonder]

If there were any, then definitely the advantage goes to the SSP and ESP guns. CDP guys will have to reload twice when the CoF round count goes past 17, or if they make up a shot. Disadvantage CDP.

No disadvantage here. CDP shooters only compete against CDP shooters. That's like saying revolver shooters were at a disadvantage.

[GmanCdp]

If there were any, then definitely the advantage goes to the SSP and ESP guns. CDP guys will have to reload twice when the CoF round count goes past 17, or if they make up a shot. Disadvantage CDP.

No disadvantage here. CDP shooters only compete against CDP shooters. That's like saying revolver shooters were at a disadvantage.

+1 to that............

[Chills1994]

yeah, but what's on everyone's minds is "who was the fastest?"

even moreso I would suspect this year since everyone probably assumed Dave S. would again be shooting SSP MA and then were just a little surprised when they saw his name under CDP MA instead. How many times did he "win" IDPA Nat's in row?

[kdmoore]

Well, I think if you are looking for who was the fastest, you can look no further than the single shot stage. division and power factor nuetral.

I like those kinds of stages, I wish they would "weight" them into the standings more. i.e. repeat those strings some amount (15x) would put it in equal weight/importance as some of the other stages. (but likely get a bit boring, not to mention that the scoring crew has 15x the work .... )

Edited October 7, 2007 by kdmoore