dirtypool40 Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I've been the voice of reason against them, but now I have convinced myself to try one. Venry and I are mixing up a batch of 6" koolaid. Those that have shot or seen or built some nice 6" guns, I'd like your opinions. There are some caveats: I can't shoot no yoogly gun. I can't stand a heavy gun. My current gun weighs something like 37 ounces. I want that as an absolute upper limit. I definitely want the slide weight less than my current 5" slide weighs, and using a bushing barrel, I think coming in around 34-35 ounces is reasonable. I'm not crazy about holes drilled all the way through the slide. Udder-n-at here's what I'm thinking so far: Start with short, standard width frame. We were talking about starting "Long Wide" and machining down some really swoop lines, but for this first one, I want to stay on a reasonably tried and true path, and when possible use off the shelf components so we can get this thing together sooner than later. Start with 6" Scallop cut slide. I'm thinking either STI or Caspian. I just don't like the look of that 90 degree scallop cut STI does on 6" guns. Maybe start with a "unique" cut STI and cut a swoopy in there? Bushing ramped barrel. I think Venry was talking about KKM, or Nowlin. Light Guide rod??? 1 piece SS or alloy? SS flat mainsrping housing, I want the weight back in my hand instead of our front. Bomar rear. (I want a Heinie, but I don't want the hassle this first time). Brown safeties. SV ITS trigger, w/ medium flat insert. Dawason Ice or EGW magwell. As for lightening / machine work: Flat top slide with gold cup style serrations. DEEEP but NOT through, ball cut in slide rounds. Small "FAL" holes cut through in the ball cut. Deep 17 deg serrations, front and rear. angle bottom of slide, 30 deg so it mates with frame. I thought of doing like a "High Power" cut in the front of the slide, but I'm not sure there will be enough meat with a bushing up there, and how would it look? Well, that's all I have for now. I know it's now THAT "Radical" but what d'ya think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Tell your gunsmith what you want, listen to what he says, toss your faith in with a pile of cash and wait for what you get. Balance is the key, let him do whatever he needs to do to achieve that balance. From what I have seen Venri doesn't make ugly guns, so no worries there. Get too specific about this cut and that cut and you can detract from the gun. Gunsmiths do certain things certain ways because that is what works for him. Cut him loose to build you the best blaster he can build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Howard just gave some great advise...IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 IMHO, It has to be almost as light as your 5" gun or you're just not going to like it. I'm not crazy about holes drilled all the way through the slide. Light and no holes don't go together too easily. It's not about looks, it's about shooting fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralChang Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Is there a one piece guide rod for a 6inch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear23 Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I've got my 6" coming from Bedell sometime here shortly. It is being built on a standard width frame, bushing 6" barrel. We'll see how she turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 (edited) I've got my 6" coming from Bedell sometime here shortly. It is being built on a standard width frame, bushing 6" barrel. We'll see how she turns out. PaulW don't even know you and he's already pissed at you. I start all this 6" talk with him last week and he came back the next day saying he had talked to Dan and somebody else had ordered the first 6" gun. Anyhoo, Matt's also right, per usual, it's about function not just form. And if this thing flips like I saw the old ones it won't be my primary for long. My plan is to keep shooting the 5" I've had for more than a year, and get plenty of baseline data, standard drills I can repeat later. Then after the Nationals, I'll give the 6" a fair shot, and several months to exceed those marks. That way it will be less of a subjective "it feels faster, slower, whatever" and a real "my hf went up x percent with with the 6" gun", or "I can show numbers that my points shooting on the move or on partials are better than the best I ever shot with the five inch gun". I'm not one to chase after the "trick of the day" but these long guns have me intrigued, and I figure this is the best way to test the theory. Edited July 3, 2007 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 ES I think you're on the right track. If it helps, my SA Custom open gun [the one you say I stole from TGO] has a flat-top that is exactly .500" wide. That & a scoop out of the back, a little more than the BoMar cut would take out, gets the slide weight down to 10.5oz. That's the same weight reduction [2oz] as my old Caspian slide had with Swiss-cheese cuts all over, cuts that I covered up with grip tape. Since you like Kydex gear, guessing you don't want scratchy tape all over your slide. One cut I would go with is all around the spring plug in front - the 6" slide has a LOT of metal around the plug. My Zitta MSH adds a nice amount of balance to the back/bottom of the gun. Sandro's STI has the stainless steel STI magwell & that does more of the same. If I was making a 6" gun [some day...] I'd put the Heavy Ice magwell on. flat top: side view including Kidd delrin guide rod: EN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Is there a one piece guide rod for a 6inch? I have a 1 pc rod in my 6" blaster (bushing bbl). It is a SV catalog item @ ~$38. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 The Magwell might make the overall weight too much, but I will keep it in mind. I have the ZM ms housing now and like it. My current gun has a tiny ball cut, a small flat top and that's about it. It shouldn't be hard to get the slide weight down to less than what I am shooting now. I am probably going to CONSIDER going to a race holster (CR?) both in hopes of clearing the gun as quickly as the 5" does out of my DOH, and to show off the sexy new blaster. I'm really happy with my DOH though and it will be tough. And yes, I still think your gun won the 95 Open Nationals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I thought of doing like a "High Power" cut in the front of the slide, but I'm not sure there will be enough meat with a bushing up there, and how would it look? It works on a bushing gun, you are just limited to the depth by the slot on the inside for the bushing. Venry was participating on another thread where we were talking about them. Here it is on a 5in bushing gun: http://www.ctbrian.com/5Inch2160.html I think (for looks) you need to go with the ball cut scallops though...like the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 Sexy gun, that one has the angle on the bottom of the slide too. I like my front serrations further back than most put them, and deep, so that should give up some weight too. I think you're right about the ball cut scallops, besides who I am to argue, you can edit this post any time you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 (edited) I've got my 6" coming from Bedell sometime here shortly. It is being built on a standard width frame, bushing 6" barrel. We'll see how she turns out. My plan is to keep shooting the 5" I've had for more than a year, and get plenty of baseline data, standard drills I can repeat later. Then after the Nationals, I'll give the 6" a fair shot, and several months to exceed those marks. That way it will be less of a subjective "it feels faster, slower, whatever" and a real "my hf went up x percent with with the 6" gun", or "I can show numbers that my points shooting on the move or on partials are better than the best I ever shot with the five inch gun". You are on the right track about documenting the results rather than relying on subjective "feel" or impressions. However, If you repeat a standard drill over several months, then change guns and continue, you will not be comparing apples to apples. I have tried this and the issue becomes that you get better and better at running the drill, so the sequential testing becomes skewed toward the gun you shoot later. I suggest that you consider side by side testing. Take both guns to the range and do the same drills on the same day, same conditions and keep good records. Over a period of time the aggregate data will point to one gun or the other. This helps take the human element out of it. Tony Edited July 3, 2007 by 38superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Tony, the difference is going to be timing I think. If he is shooting a slide now that is basically full weight and a bull barrel a lightened slide and bushing barrel gun is going to time different. I know when I did that exact comparison the difference was very very apparent. At the least it will take time and ammo to time out the new gun and get comfortable with it to get past the honeymoon phase.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 You are on the right track about documenting the results rather that subjective "feel". - Tony Well, barring some human test-bed like TGO or Benos, the best I can do is try to be at 100%, for me, and see which gun I shoot better. What I'm talking about is getting in the best shooting shape I can for the nationals, and knowing what good numbers are, and then at that peak, switching guns. That way I won't be at say 80% and switch guns, coming back up to 100% and thinking it MUST have been the new gun. I should be in a better place to see and evaluate the differences when I am shooting my best. I'm also going to give the new gun several months so through the ups and downs and learning, I don't want to have one good or bad match with it and pass judgement. I am confident it will help accuracy, but I don't have enough speed I'm willing to give any of it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 (edited) I agree with the need to shoot the crap out of the 6 inch and get comfortable with it before making any kind of comparison. I suggest we all get new 6in guns and do the drills to compare notes. Tony Edited July 3, 2007 by 38superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Tony, the difference is going to be timing I think. If he is shooting a slide now that is basically full weight and a bull barrel a lightened slide and bushing barrel gun is going to time different. I know when I did that exact comparison the difference was very very apparent. At the least it will take time and ammo to time out the new gun and get comfortable with it to get past the honeymoon phase.... I think that is a valid point...and one I was was pondering when talking with Ben Stoeger online. When doing a head-to-head comparison..the shooter may bring their current timing into the equation...which might serve to bias the results a bit. I like the idea of getting timed into the gun/setup before drawing too many conclusions. (sorry for the drift) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 (edited) Well, however you do it DP, keep us informed on the build progress and the shooting results. I am seriously thinking of drinking the kool-aid myself and I am really interested to see how this goes. I haven't bought a new gun in over a year now. It may be time to buy myself a present. P.S. Got my slot for the Limited Nationals today. See you all in Tulsa. Edited July 3, 2007 by 38superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 (edited) I like the idea of getting timed into the gun/setup before drawing too many conclusions. (sorry for the drift) not at all, I think we're kinda all saying the same thing. If I started from a layoff, I would see improvement regardless of gun. If I start at the top, I will be timed to the old gun and need time to adjust. I've been looking through the old "skills" threads finding my posts so I have some old, good times to compare to. I'm hoping to meet and exceed those as I get back "in stroke" towards the nationals and then carry it over to the transition to the new gun. What I am going to compare is the results with the different guns being the "only" variable. I'm looking to find out if I gain anything in the switch, and it's the closest thing to a scientific test I can think of. Everything else is just feel and conjecture. Edited July 3, 2007 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Just a thought - use a Delrin guide rod. Rusty Kidd can make one for you if Venry doesn't have the materials handy. As long as you don't throw sharp edges against it, the Delrin holds up just fine, and it'll save a couple of ounces on your weight budget Mr. Nielsen mentions his in in the caption for a picture above... They can be made to any length, and function as one piece guide rods (so, a takedown hole needs to be drilled, as well...) Also, hog out anything you can around the recoil spring plug on the slide - won't affect you like holes in the slide, but will shave some weight. I don't know if you can get down in the 34-35 ounce range w/o drilling through the slide somewhere, or not... sub-40 should be easily doable, I'd think... My old 6" Viper was 40 or 41 ounces w/ C-More on it, and it had a 6" slide (w/ short Tribrid cut, plus a lot of non-slide-penetrating lightening...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 (edited) Perfect, I started the the 6" thread, mainly because I have been curious about it for a while, and then got thinking about it again after TGO's most recent victory. I was thinking of drinking the "kool-aid" Now I have a Test Dummy in DP I see me getting one, IF, DP's testing goes well!!! Go for it Eric Edited July 3, 2007 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 Now I have a Test Dummy in DP I seem me getting one, IF, DP's testing goes well!!! Go for it Eric Hey!!! I resemble that!!! Anyhoo, I'm currently shooting a BULL barrel and short / WIDE dc, so going to narrow dc and bushing should (hope?) get me down to a similar weight before "swiss-ing" the slide. Besides, I have to keep an eye on Venry or I'll end up with a 3 ounce steel fishnet stretched over a barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I have to keep an eye on Venry or I'll end up with a 3 ounce steel fishnet stretched over a barrel. You say that like it is a bad thing.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 W/O any holes or slots in the slide & with reverse plug tunnel cut, gun will probley come in at about 38 oz. With cuts at about 35-36 oz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Keep us posted, I am looking forward to the results. I have been contemplating a 6" for along while. Just waiting for funds to work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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