You Make The Call

[Coach]

Here is a direct quote from the Stage diagram at a Club match.

Start Position: Standing in Box A, hands above respective shoulders OR relaxed naturally at sides. Start String 2 with hands in other position. Gun loaded and holstered per rule 8.1.

Stage Procedure

String 1: Upon start signal, engage T1 - T6 with one round each from Box A, perform a mandatory reload, and then re-engage T1-T6 with one round each from Box A.

String 2: Upon start signal, engage T1 - T6 with one round each from Box A, perform a mandatory reload, and then re-engage T1-T6 with one round each STRONG HAND ONLY from Box A.

Here is the situation.

A shooter fires string 1 freestyle, reloads and fires strong hand only. RO says you must still shoot strong hand only on string 2 because the WSB requires strong hand only on the second string. Shooter fires freestyle on string 2 and no strong hand only.

Is this permissible? Should there be a penalty and what should it be?

[driver8M3]

6 procedurals for string 2.

[Joe4d]

yep he shot the first string freestyle which means anyway you want, second string specified hold. So could either get 6 procedurals if he deliberately fired with both hands to be hard headed after being reminded by RO he could also be given match DQ for failing to follow reasonable directions IAW 10.6.1

[open17]

6 procedurals for string 2. Rule 10.2.2. Definite advantage gained.

10.2.8.1 also applies.

Edited April 30, 2007 by open17

[Coach]

Thanks for the help everyone. I thought this was simple as well.

[caps]

6 procs or a match dq?? I say we should expel him from USPSA!

C'mon guys. He shot each string correctly but in the wrong sequence, so where's the advantage? I say he gets 1 proc at most but I'd feel like an ass even giving him 1 proc.

[Jim Norman]

String one: Freestyle

String two: Strong hand only

Shooter does not follow the WSB. 1 Proceedural

Shooter shoots string two with both hande, ie., freestyle, advantage gained during the second string on a per shot basis.

What to do?

One can argue that there was an advantage gained and IF this was a single string exercise, I would have to agree. The shooter did not follow directions and reloading to weakhand is not a easy as reloading to both hands.

We have basis here for providing up to 7 proceedurals. Or only one, then shooter did fulfill the requirments of the COF.

At a local match I would support one proceedural. At a major match I would have to give the 7 proceedurals. Part of what we do is process information and follow directoin under stress. The shooter demonstrated an inability to do this.

At the local level I would explain this very carefully to the shooter and he gets one 'buy'

Jim

[davidball]

Devil's advocate question:

Does "String 1" mean "first string"? Or is "String 1" just an arbitrary designation like "String A" or "String Blue"? This is the crux of the issue. 10.2.2 requires following the WSB. The shooter in this case could be said to have done that. The question is the order in which it was done. Has the order of the strings been designated in the WSB?

[uscbigdawg]

Yep. I read 6 procedurals.

Rich

[Coach]

If string 1 does not mean string 1 then written stage briefings will become pretty much useless won't they? Do we really have to define what "is" means?

I waffled between 6 and then 1 procedural. But I am back to six. On the second string he was to fire six shots SHO, and failed to do that six times. Seems like six is the number.

[cking]

For a local match write down first time string in string 2 box give one procedural. No big deal, don't chase off customers!!!!

[JayWord]

For a local match write down first time string in string 2 box give one procedural. No big deal, don't chase off customers!!!!

So shooting freestyle on string two in not an advantage? 10.2.2/ 10.2.8.1

6 procedurals. He complied in string one. Freestyle is not defined as using both hands, it is freestyle. If the shooter wanted to use just one hand for the whole string, there should not be any penalty.

Customers want a fair match for all. Failing to follow the rule is unfair to the shooters who did comply with the rules. So which group are you trying to run off?

[LPatterson]

String 1 does not specify which hand to use so the shooter could have done it weak hand only.

String 2 requires strong hand only after the reload so by using both hands the shooter receives a procedural per shot fired up to 6.

cking

If a local match is presented under USPSA rules you are not helping the shooter when they do not abide by the rules just to make them feel good. A local match is the best place to impart strict adherence to rules or would you rather have do something stupid at an Area match and have them say but that is the way it's done back at Podunk Gun Club.

[Coach]

This situation came up and feedback was wanted. It was all very calm and no one was run off. (I think)

The argument the shooter presented was that he fired the correct number of shot and followed the stage briefing but he just did in a different order. I gladly agree to everything he said. The disagreement is about is String 1 and String 2 dictate the order in which they have to be shot.

I cannot fully understand the arguement that String 2 can be shot first. I am not sure if the shooter really believes that or is just enjoying a good old fashion debate. Could be a little of both.

Edited April 30, 2007 by RoyceLowellPatton

[XRe]

Frankly, I don't think he needs a procedural, in this case. So he had a brain fart... he completed the course of fire with exactly the same challenge as everyone else. At most, I could see 1 procedural (failure to follow the exact specification of the stage briefing, no advantage gained).

I understand where you guys are getting 6 penalties from (even though I don't agree with it) - but Jim, 7??? How do you figure?? Remember, freestyle is exactly that - freestyle. You can shoot weak hand only "upside down homey style" if you want. So, shooting strong hand only is perfectly valid in a "freestyle" string (though its obviously not advantageous...).

[Mick]

Y'all make some good points but I think you have to follow each string as specified in the stage description so he gets 6 procedurals but since it was a club match and he did it right but in the wrong order, give him one and go on....

[open17]

I understand where you guys are getting 6 penalties from (even though I don't agree with it) - but Jim, 7??? How do you figure??

Just guessing here.

1 for violating 10.2.2 Failure to follow the WSB

6 for violating 10.2.8.2 Touching the gun with the other hand.

I've never seen it done this way. Max around here would be 6.

Is seven the correct answer??? Troy?

Bill

[Jaxshooter]

Rules are rules, that is why we have a rule book. It dosen't matter if it is a local shoot or the world championship we play by the rules. He should get 1 for failure to follow WSB and 6 more for the advantage gained.

[Flexmoney]

At a local match I would support one proceedural. At a major match...

UGH!!!

Enough with the rules being applied differently for a local match than a major. That is the problem other sports run into...the local guys putting their own spin on the rules.

That is not USPSA.

We are all big kids and need to take responsibility for our actions...and learn from them.

Devil's advocate question:

Does "String 1" mean "first string"? Or is "String 1" just an arbitrary designation like "String A" or "String Blue"? This is the crux of the issue. 10.2.2 requires following the WSB. The shooter in this case could be said to have done that. The question is the order in which it was done. Has the order of the strings been designated in the WSB?

I believe String 1 means String 1...just as it says.

[mactiger]

He either gets one, for not following the procedure as specified in the WSB, or he gets 6 for not following the procedure as specified in the WSB and gaining an advantage. Since the WSB stated freestyle in string one, that's how he shot it. Freestyle doesn't mean using two hands, as Jay mentioned. Since the competitor did not comply with the WSB in string two, and fired 6 rounds freestyle, rather than strong hand only, then I'd give him 6 procedurals.

If the WSB said on one string shoot all freestyle, and on the other string, shoot SHO after making the reload, (letting the competitor solve the problem), then he wouldn't get any, but that's not the case, is it?

We don't penalize twice for the same infraction, unless it's an extra shot/extra hit thing as in VC. That's not the case here, so 7 doesn't wash. 6 is enough and is the right call to make, IMO.

Enforce the rules fairly, all the time, every time. It's the right thing to do, at all levels of competition.

Troy

PS: Oh, yeah: 10.2.2 and 10.2.3--another reason that 7 isn't a good number.

Edited April 30, 2007 by mactiger

[XD Niner]

+1 on enforcing the rules and penalties as they would be in any match, major or local. I would sure rather learn a lesson like this in a monthly local match than at a major match.

[chuckw]

For a local match write down first time string in string 2 box give one procedural. No big deal, don't chase off customers!!!!

Gets my vote - for ALL matches! He just got his strings confused. He didn't get an advantage. We sure have a lot of hanging judges here!

Edited May 1, 2007 by chuckw

[LPatterson]

For a local match write down first time string in string 2 box give one procedural. No big deal, don't chase off customers!!!!

Gets my vote - for ALL matches! He just got his strings confused. He didn't get an advantage. We sure have a lot of hanging judges here!

At an Area match a competitor shows up with a thigh holster, when told he couldn't use it he said why not because he used it for all his local matches. Seems someone at home didn't explain US5.2.8 applied instead of 5.2.8. After putting the holster on the belt the competitor had to be told that for Production division the holster & mag pouches had to be behind the point of the hip, another thing he wasn't told locally. After shooting 15 rounds between mag changes was told he was being moved to Open division and he couldn't understand why.

If you don't teach children how to do things right at home don't expect them to do any differently when they go to school.

[sslav]

Rules are rules, that is why we have a rule book. It dosen't matter if it is a local shoot or the world championship we play by the rules. He should get 1 for failure to follow WSB and 6 more for the advantage gained.

But what was the advantage gained? The shooter had accepted a handicap in string one instead of string two. Clearly he violated WSB. But was there a net advantage gained on the stage?

[Fireant]

Don't we have some classifiers that let you choose which way you shoot string 1 and 2? Wouldn't that lead you to believe that unless the WSB said it was a penalty that you are allowed to do it that way? There is no advantage gained, so no penalty.