Drm & Fistfire

[Duane Thomas]

Does anyone have, or know where to find on the 'net, a list of the national champions in each division for every year of the IDPA National Championships and S&W Winter Championships?

[Joe4d]

Seems kinda strange people will catch the "Point shoot" from D.R. and stop there. D.R. will be the first one to tell you if the gun is at full extension and sights are visable use em that's what they are for. His techniques carry into Copmpetition but he directs it at defense. The point shooting comes in at shorter range targets generally from retention and 3/4 extension. But it does work. Ive seen it myself had him come up tell me twist my elbow a little and then cleaned a plate rack at 12 yards with an unsighted Browning Hipower. I have also seen him tag standard IDPA targets at 100 yards with an unsighted EEA witness. I know D.R. fairly well and he can come across as abrasive and opinionated but everything I have heard him say I have seen him do so I guess thats why I have a higher opinion of him than many that havent met him. Alot of what he teaches he picked up getting nailed with simunitions in man on man competitions. Hence teaching lots of shooting from retention and unsighted fire. I to the above poster Id bet my last dollar he could nail any reasonable target while shooting under a table.

[Flexmoney]

Folks, for me, the bigger picture isn't about somebody's bravado.

It's more...'can I learn something from anybody/everybody, or do I know everything already'?

This thread started with a question along the lines of...

Why would he do that?

Maybe the answer ought to be as simple as...

Because he can.

No skin off my back, right ?

That does, in my mind, lead to the next question...

Since he can...how? And, can I learn anything from that?

I may not embrace somebody's style...but I sure would give it a look and see what's there.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Good post flex.

[Sestock]

I checked he was only an A class in USPSA. Maybe if he would shoot in USPSA he could be a GM in relality, not fantasy.

Edited April 15, 2007 by Sestock

[Flexmoney]

I checked he was only an A class in USPSA. Maybe if he would shoot in USPSA he could be a GM in relality, not fantasy.

I've never heard DRM make any claim toward what classificatin he carries.

Classification cards don't win matches anyway. But, if somebody cares about that stuff...there has been post after post made on this thread by guys that do carry those upper-level classification cards...saying the man can shoot.

His student kicked the butt of everybody at the PSA in 2003, 2004, & 2005 (stock - 1st. 2nd, 1st)...using DRM'system. Horner also won the IDPA Nationals (beating Leatham along with everybody else in ESP).

LET'S GET PAST THE PERSONAL BIAS.

Lets talk about shooting.

[Singlestack Wonder]

I checked he was only an A class in USPSA. Maybe if he would shoot in USPSA he could be a GM in relality, not fantasy.

Maybe so, but in the big picture, a GM in USPSA is just that, a GM in USPSA. No relevance to the rest of the shooting sports. If you shot Bianchi Cup, IDPA, SSC, or Bullseye, maybe in reality, you could be a master in those sports. USPSA is only one of many shooting games, representing approx. 15,000 shooters. A very small percentage of active shooters in the world today.

[Ron Ankeny]

I checked he was only an A class in USPSA. Maybe if he would shoot in USPSA he could be a GM in relality, not fantasy.

Somewhere on his web site (at least on the old one) DR talks about his days shooting A class in USPSA. I am pretty sure if you wander over to his forum and direct your questions and comments directly to him, he will in all probability reply.

[JD45]

If you go to his website link in this thread and read his FAQ section, nearly any possible question is answered.

I read it and his answers were really clear. He even talks about using sights on targets over 7-10yds. when your presentation is at full extension.

[Grump]

Quote:

I have taken the sights off and shot to allow myself to explore the inputs my sense are given me, other than my sights.

end quote.

In discussion with a certain gunwriter/trainer who also shoots competition at the LV Shot Show 2006, he agreed with my premise that any time you're getting visual input on the gun, you are actually shooting "sighted" but using something other than the sights to aim.

Peripheral vision is a strong and valuable thing.

Don't call the current crop of pointshooting disciplines more or less than what they truly are. The more you are paying attention to the gun while you are looking at the target, the more you are actually AIMING it.

It's a useful and possibly life-saving skill. I happen to believe it's not "truly" pointshooting (semantics and splitting hairs and all that) until the firearm is more than a foot below your line of sight. As I understand it, most disciples of the various "threat-focused" or "point-shooting" techniques teach that for close-in work.

I just don't see anyone engaging 8-inch or smaller targets beyond 10-12 yards without fully extending the firearm and being able to do what I call "sightless aiming".

Edited April 26, 2007 by Grump

[DRM]

I agree with Flex. Perhaps if we keep the focus of the discussion on "TECHNIQUE" we may ALL learn something...

I've watched shooting techniques evolve since I began shooting National level matches in the 1970's. I'm always looking for the mechanical advantage as well as any technique advantage that I can get.

So for me, no matter how goofy something sounds, I'll study it out and test it thoroughly before I pass judgment. I find there's always something that can be gleaned from the experience (Good or Bad).

[link edited]

Cheers,

D.R. Middlebrooks

Edited July 24, 2007 by Flexmoney

[Loves2Shoot]

Interesting, as I was going over this in this mornings practice. I shoot a LOT of different guns every week, as I test fire every gun that leave the shop. Under certain distances, I can "fist fire" just fine, pretty dang accurately also.

My own personal conclusion is simple, when I don't use the sights, my mind wanders and it ends up being slower. When I use my eyes to direct my action and lead me through a drill, the times are quicker and I know where the hits are (good or bad) because I shoot with more purpose.

I agree with D.R. in that you should test things for yourself, so that you can really learn. I've shot bunches of sightless XD's using the loaded chamber indicator as a reference and it work suprisingly well. Would I have thought that without trying it, probably not.

To learn you must fail, the more you fail, the more you can learn. That is why I think that there are some talented folks who never go far in shooting, because they are afraid to fail. When you are no longer afraid to fail, you open yourself up to learning, and progress.

It is easy to ridicule someone who is on another path, especially when you have followers who don't get what the path really is about. Most folks don't want to put the effort in to really understand the essence of things, so they just parrot someone they see as "great." Letting the "fools" get in the way of your progress doesn't really help you much in your own journey.

If I can draw the gun 4 ways (which I can) about the same speed and as reliably, which is better? Hmmm.

Technique is only part of any action, and not an end in itself.

[shred]

For the heck of it and just to see, I shot some small stages with the dot intentionally turned off on my open gun. If you've got enough rounds through the gun (thus a good index) and look hard at the targets, you can shoot surprisingly good hits. Hits on 12" plates at 15 yards and 1/2 A-zones with no-shoots at 10 while still running master-class speeds were no big deal. The downside is with no sights you can't call your shots, unless you look for the hits, which sucks.

[DRM]

Grip & Index...

I remember back when I was working on the C-More (Red Dot optic) prototype in my shop. Ira Kay had asked me to "make a tube" for it (back then, most people used the tube to point/index the gun). But I told him it didn't need a tube, just a 1" ring. Further, it would allow the shooter to "See More" with less obstructions, hence came the name "C-More".

He said, "Well how will they index it?" to which I said, "If they have the proper grip, it will be indexed."

He then said, "What about the sun?" to which I said, "It sunny outside right now, let's shoot."

Well, after a few mags, Ira exclaimed, "WE DON'T NEED A TUBE!!"

We then took it to the FIPT Match in Florida and set up a booth. I immediately got heckled and ridiculed by some Grand Masters but I got the last laugh. The sight won the match, then went on to win the Nationals & the World including the Shoot Off finals.

There's a moral here somewhere...

Cheers,

D.R. Middlebrooks

Edited July 21, 2007 by benos

[BSeevers]

This thread reminds me of a post I was thinking about starting. I was practicing last week and alternating between the Limited and Open and forgot to turn on the dot, drawed on a USPSA popper and went oops and then thought/called that was a hit and took it. Center of circle. Did a few more and all hits. Said to myself, it was grooved index, and started to alternate poppers and repeat and then measured 18 yards to poppers. I learned something. Am I going to shoot without sights? No, my lesson was about trust and technique.

[DRM]

This thread reminds me of a post I was thinking about starting. I was practicing last week and alternating between the Limited and Open and forgot to turn on the dot, drawed on a USPSA popper and went oops and then thought/called that was a hit and took it. Center of circle. Did a few more and all hits. Said to myself, it was grooved index, and started to alternate poppers and repeat and then measured 18 yards to poppers. I learned something. Am I going to shoot without sights? No, my lesson was about trust and technique.

Your exactly right. Without the proper grip, the proper index, proper presentation and trigger press you CANNOT hit without sights, especially if the targets are small and far away.

Back in the day (when the red dot sights came into play) we got a lot of complaints about the electronic sights going out. Many times the sight was just fine, but the shooter's grip and index were all wrong. The dot was on, but it was just outside the ring, and they couldn't see it.

D.R. Middlebrooks

Edited July 21, 2007 by benos

[P.E. Kelley]

Not to start a bashing session, but who is this DR Middlebrooks?

I guess the guy can shoot.

Blackwater Challenge - Match Champion

Florida I.D.P.A. - State Champion (High Overall)

West Virginia I.D.P.A. - State Champion (High Overall)

2 Time Virginia I.D.P.A. - State Champion (High Overall)

Winchester World Challenge - Stock Gun World Champion

I.D.P.A. Nationals - Enhanced Service Pistol National Champion

3 Time American Handgunner - Stock Gun World Shoot Off Champion

3 Time American Handgunner - IDPA Division World Shoot Off Champion

Yes he can.

I was squadded with him at one the of handgunner matches (I sucked big time so I forgot what year). He not only shot well but was a very enjoyable and gracious guy to boot.

On our third run my gun malfed giving him the bout 2 to 1 but he refused to win that way. He not only offered to reshoot that bout but we went to the safe area got my gun working, test fired it and returned to reshoot the bout!

I have read his posts here and on "other boards" and he is pugnacious to say the least.. This is a far cry from the true sportsmanship I experienced.

My point about “point shooting” is that if your gun is in within your view, whether you are focused on it or on the sights or not, you are aiming the gun to hit the target.

Patrick

Hey D.R do you remember this?

Do you remember my foolishness having you install your Pro Sights during the match and then going back to shooting the match?

Dam what was I thinking???? I know, I was looking for something that was not there.....Skill!!!

Best to you.

Patrick

[DRM]

Is that you? Patty O'Kelly?

Good to hear from you!

Yeah, I think that was back in '96 or '97 B.F. (Before Fist-Fire ). Just to bring you up to speed: I was having a lot of trouble seeing my sights back then (my precious iron sights ) and I was in total panic mode!!

So, I came up with that Circle Dot Pro-Sight and everyone (including some GM's) said it wouldn't shoot. Then Chad Dietrich used it at the NRA Bianchi Cup shot the highest score ever fired with a stock gun (1905 out of 1920). And of course, they outlawed the sight right after that...

So, I kept searching for a better way to see my sights with my aging eyes. The V-Dot worked pretty well. But after watching Jim Wall shoot without sights it REALLY got me thinking. And with all my wrist and joint problems I just had to come up with some better ways to shoot a handgun or just quit shooting. Thus began my quest.

FIST-FIRE is the end result of over 30 years of Research & Development the art of combat pistolcraft. We have proven that the shooting techniques work "as good or better" than anything the top shooters are using, yet it blends seamlessly with modern Mixed Martial Arts techniques (that's why it's being used and endorsed by some of the leading trainers in the UFC & PRIDE.)

Anyway, please email me at info@TacticalShooting.com. We got some more catching up to do! What's Jim Wall up to these days??

Take care,

D.R.

Edited July 21, 2007 by benos

[mike cyrwus]

Hi, DR!

Im a big fan.

Some people get what the big picture is, that you teach.

[Steve Moneypenny]

You know something DR I must hand it to you. Your technique and marketing of it has made more people THINK hard in shooting than has happened in many years, and for that the shooting community is in debt to you!

Whether you like DR's technique or not. whether you like HIM or not doesn't matter. he has a system of shooting there are a handful of systems that are highly successful (if that many) and his has been proven to be one. so lets talk positive aspects of shooting with things that allow us to improve and move forward.

To me index is extremely important, group shooting taught me what a tiny bit of index off can produce at 25 and even 50 yards. add speed to decrease the group size and index has an even greater effect on accuracy. Index and where you place it also has a great effect on speed. if your shooting outside of your comfortable area to index to your body takes longer to get there.

HAPPY shooting everyone.

[DRM]

Thanks Guys, I appreciate all the kinds words...

I just finished a two day F-F class and the students here were talking about how the IPSC guys usually seem to the better "all around" shooters. I agree, and I think I know why (at least in part, anyway).

I honestly believe that the C-More sight (which, by the way, I have no financial ties to) is a tool that has contributed greatly to the development of the proper index. In my experience, learning to shoot a red dot optic (and a C-More in particular) is what REALLY helped me develop my index to begin with. Mainly because there is no frame of reference to sight with, other than your strong hand grip.

Now also consider that as pistolsmith, I was building Red Dot sighted Race Guns. Before I would ever put a scope mount on, I would first function fire the gun for reliability. Once I was sure the gun would run, I would then put the scope & mount on it and THEN tune the ejection so the brass would clear the mount.

Well, to make a long story short, I have a test range right out side my shop door where I can test fire and sight in pistols. And I also have a plate rack.

One day was function testing a sightless race gun and decided to see if I could hit the 8" plates (as opposed to just dumping rounds into the berm). Man, I was amazed that I could hit the plates. That got me re-thinking the concepts about "Point Shooting".

Take care,

D.R. Middlebrooks

[P.E. Kelley]

I started my own “sightless” journey after Jim Wall had me play around with his “fire branded” sightless Norinco 1911A1. The same gun he shot a number of years at the SOF 3 gun (always in the top 20) and the same rock stock sans sights pistol he used to take 3rd overall Limited a USPSA Area 1 a few years ago.

At first I just used the slide as a (crutch) sight but after awhile just started doing what came natural and looked at the target. Dammed if hitting wasn’t easier that way!

Shortly thereafter I picked up an Argentine 1911-A1 in all it’s rattling glory, took a punch to the sights and slapped on the sinister required ambi-safety.

Man what a training tool! It ain’t magic just proper NPA and TRIGGER CONTROL! I was hooked. To be honest when it counts (read Major Match) I run a sighted gun as I can expect a more consistent performance IF I USE the sights.

My sightless experience has given me more visual freedom in what I need to see to place shots.

Patrick

[Steve Moneypenny]

I have actually observed that vision is only a measurement of intent. If your looking at a spot your attention and intention is at that spot. such as the mag well. or targets. when your intent leaves an object so does your ability to hit it.

for instance set up a popper on your left. you can aim the gun at it.. look away and still shoot it. but if you THINK into the next target or are more concentrated on getting there. you'll miss.... kind of deep. but i've been trying to solve my mystery mike problem. the whole here and now consciousness thing is where i've tracked it down to.

[DRM]

We're gearing up for the TSA "Street Gun Nationals" to be held on the Tactical Shooting Academy range Oct. 19-21. I'll be shooting without sights for research in the Point Shooting division. I want to see how far we can push the envelope on this issue. We shall see!

Cheers,

D.R. Middlebrooks

Edited July 24, 2007 by DRM

[DRM]

I have actually observed that vision is only a measurement of intent. If your looking at a spot your attention and intention is at that spot. such as the mag well. or targets. when your intent leaves an object so does your ability to hit it.

Not really sure I agree, not in regards to my method of Point Shooting anyway. As for me and my house, we look at where we want the shot to go, and stay there until we connect, which requires 100% target focus. FWIW: If you want to talk about "speed" this is where I found it.

That said, in regards to the Fist-Fire techniques, I find "VISION" is vital and directly related to feed back from the target (especially from reactionary targets) as opposed to the feed back we get from the iron sights.

So, I'm not talking about "reading your sights" as much as I am talking about "reading your hits" and "confirming the hit" BEFORE pulling off and away.

I know this goes against the grain of tradition, but it works for us.

Cheers,

D.R. Middlebrooks