Drm & Fistfire

[Jake Di Vita]

I started shooting by point shooting through my first few years, it got me great speed, but I never got great hits. I later pounded in using sights and that has worked great for me since.

That being said, I'd love to actually do some training with your system and see the results. Afterall...the mark of a champion is always keeping your mind open to change and improvement.

[ong45]

Not really sure I agree, not in regards to my method of Point Shooting anyway. As for me and my house, we look at where we want the shot to go, and stay there until we connect, which requires 100% target focus. FWIW: If you want to talk about "speed" this is where I found it.

That said, in regards to the Fist-Fire techniques, I find "VISION" is vital and directly related to feed back from the target (especially from reactionary targets) as opposed to the feed back we get from the iron sights.

So, I'm not talking about "reading your sights" as much as I am talking about "reading your hits" and "confirming the hit" BEFORE pulling off and away.

I know this goes against the grain of tradition, but it works for us.

Cheers,

D.R. Middlebrooks

How does this work for you when shooting non reactive targets? Seems to me you shoot a plate rack ( a la handgunner ) too fast to be waiting for the target to react before moving on to the next plate?

[HSMITH]

To me there are two classes of shots. There are times to shoot sighted confirmed shots and times to shoot. Either way it is a sighted shot, by muscle memory or by sight alignment. There is NO other way to shoot and hope to hit ANYTHING but the earth.

EIDT for premature posting and then EIDIT to clarify without (hopefully) insulting those who shoot a LOT better than I do.

Edited August 11, 2007 by HSMITH

[Flexmoney]

Let me throw a few things out real quick. I've studied up on a lot of the different (pointing) methods that are out there. I've had some spirited back and forth (on other forums) with some of the 'target focused' crowd. None of those guys were competition shooters. They were putting their stuff out as defensive. I went 'round and 'round with them for months (so did a few others).

After months and months...and months... of questions on their claims, we finally defined some things like distance from the target. Most of those guys didn't know what they didn't know. It was hard to talk shooting with them. Only a couple were willing/able to carry on a conversation.

Now, DRM isn't in that group. And, he has a competition background.

Anyway...all of that to say this...

The target focused stuff is usually applied to targets that are close. Probably REAL close by our thinking. Like, less than 5y close, maybe less than 3y. As you get out to 10y or so, the sights come more and more into play.

(*disclaimer....I am not a target focused shooter)

[DRM]

How does this work for you when shooting non reactive targets? Seems to me you shoot a plate rack ( a la handgunner ) too fast to be waiting for the target to react before moving on to the next plate?

Actually, when using 100% target focus I can see the hit on the steel and/or see the plate move.

On paper, I simply look for the hits. Basically, if I can see the bullet holes in the paper, I find that I don't really need the sights with my system of shooting.

As I said in the Fist-Fire book, the rule of thumb for using the Fist-Fire method is 7 yds. and in we point shoot. From 7-10 yds we transition to sights and beyond 10 yards we really should be using the sights (if you can still see them. I'm 54, so the sights are blurry).

So, I have been experimenting for five years now Point Shooting without any sights. I've pushed the envelope well beyond anything I ever thought possible. This is due to the bio-mechanical method I use for grip and index.

Cheers,

D.R.

Edited August 14, 2007 by DRM

[DRM]

Reverse Weaver...

If you look at the 2007 Nov/Dec. issue of American Handguner on page 40 there is a picture of Chris Tilley. He is using what appears to be a text book perfect "Reverse Weaver" (ala Fist-Fire) technique. And also notice the two empty cases just outside of the ejection port. Now that's recoil control.

Cheers,

D.R. Middlebrooks

Edited September 27, 2007 by DRM

[kruger]

Reverse Weaver...

If you look at the 2007 Nov/Dec. issue of American Handguner on page 40 there is a picture of Chris Tilley. He is using what appears to be a text book perfect "Reverse Weaver" (ala Fist-Fire) technique. And also notice the two empty cases just outside of the ejection port. Now that's recoil control.

Cheers,

D.R. Middlebrooks

If someone would be so kind as to post the picture?

Appearances can be deceiving, asking Chris what he was doing, and for context, is really the only way to know what was going on.

[Echo Four]

American Handgunner doesn't have the picture online. It is in the "Practical Shooting Competition Is Fun But Are There Practical Benefits?" article.

[DRM]

If someone would be so kind as to post the picture?

Appearances can be deceiving...

To the untrained eye, maybe. But I wrote the book on this particular subject. And I know it (the"Reverse Weaver" technique) when I see it (if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and sounds like duck, it's a duck. ).

I shot with Chris at the IDPA Nat's a few years back and he was on my squad. He was shooting Mod Iso as I recall back then.

Bottom Line: If Top Shooters like Chris Tilley and Julie Goloski are coming to the same conclusions as I did back in late '98 I think this is great! Whether or not they got it from me doesn't matter. After all, it's all about evolution of shooting technique.

Respectfully,

D.R. Middlebrooks

Edited September 28, 2007 by DRM

[Kevin Kline]

American Handgunner doesn't have the picture online. It is in the "Practical Shooting Competition Is Fun But Are There Practical Benefits?" article.

I don't think that picture of Chris is the one DRM is talking about. That one has him reloading. The picture DRM is talking about is on page 40 (Better Shooting article by Dave Anderson).

[shred]

Funny.. last time I clicked into this thread a couple days ago the other person reading it was Chris Tilley.

[EricW]

Are either Julie or Chris aware that they are utilizing the FistFire®© technique?

[Flexmoney]

I'm not sure on terms. I know that we seldom apply them to what we do (in talks around here).

I don't think reverse weaver means Fistfire. Perhaps it is a grip/stance that Fistfire utilizes.

I once asked Julie about her grip and stance. You can read that here: <Julie's grip and stance response>

In the next post on Julie's thread, Pat harrison points out that Matt Burkett talks about the weak arm being straighter in his "Practical Shooting Manual".

I know that Burkett and DRM have beat this around on other forums. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

Henning has some great video on his website from the 2006 Open Nationals. There, you can see quite a few angles on Chris...and other top shooters. http://henningshootsguns.com/pages/2006_open.html

[chp5]

To learn you must fail, the more you fail, the more you can learn. That is why I think that there are some talented folks who never go far in shooting, because they are afraid to fail. When you are no longer afraid to fail, you open yourself up to learning, and progress.

Insightful comment L2S.

. . . nevermind . . .

Edited October 2, 2007 by chp5

[DRM]

FIST-FIRE is not just "one way of holding and shooting a handgun", it's a complete system of shooting. It's not one dimensional, it's multifaceted...

That said, in F-F we use an entire sequence of natural "progressions" of different shooting presentations,and most especially the Reverse Weaver (we also have various "default" levels of weapons presentation, too).

But the most commonly used shooting position in the F-F system is the "Reverse Weaver". Look at the Fist-Fire book, look at page 40 in AH mag, look at my DVD's, you'll see it. You can actually go back as far as 2000 and see it in Combat Handguns magazine article on F-F and see it explained quite clearly.

FWIW: GM shooter Ricks Simes uses the Reverse Weaver quite extensively (he's also happens to be one of the best F-F Instructors I have in my camp ).

Bottom Line: Rick and I both agree, that when shooting and moving in IDPA or IPSC type matches, we "flow in and out" of different levels of weapons presentation, flowing in and out of different shooting positions. And the RW is the most common one we use...and there are many variations of it, all based upon the amount of forward extension (push out) we need.

Cheers,

D.R.

Edited October 1, 2007 by DRM

[fistol]

I didn't let what other people say against DRM prevent me from trying to learn his Fist Fire technique. I took the plunged and watched the 2 dvd's about Fist-Fire. All I can say is it's well worth it, especially DVD part 2. Just learning the Fist Fire grip technique alone is worth my money and time. It's the best grip technique that I found which worked for me. Coupled with the indexing technique, I found the sights aligned to the target everytime I point my gun to it. I did not need to adjust my sights because it's already adjusted. It's as easy as "point and shoot". Probably this is the reason why DRM can shoot a target without sights on the gun. But using sights is not prohibited. If one has time, then one can use it. For me, whenever I point the gun at a 20, 25, 30 yard targets, I confirm whether my sights are aligned. So far using the Fist Fire technique, the sights are aligned all the time, and I don't need to adjust it. Needless to state, I've shot my best performance so far, using the Fist Fire technique.

I suggest renting or buying DVD part 2, because here DRM explains the how of Fist Fire. I think DRM could have turned more converts into his system if his marketing efforts were a little more savy and diplomatic to say the least. I've read some of the forums and a lot of people were turned off, not necessarily with the system, but with DRM's personality. It's sad because the system actually has a lot of merit and worth studying. But if you are open-minded and willing to learn, I recommend at least renting the DVD part 2.

Edited November 20, 2008 by fistol

[oregonshooter]

Where do you rent such a thing?

[fistol]

hi, you can probably rent at smartflix.com. or just google it and you might find some stores renting them out near your place.

Edited November 20, 2008 by fistol

[oregonshooter]

Cool, had not seen the smartflix.com sight before. Thanks!

[Boats]

DR is a nice guy, experienced, and a real student of the sport. His methods are a result of progression over many years and not being afraid to try new things.

On the videos the first video sells his technique. 2nd goes into how. It's as good as I have seen on action pistol shooting. Heavy on grip and index with practical tips .on reloads shooting while moving etc. Nothing radical at all. His shoot with no sights trick is intended to show how important proper grip and index is to shooting, it can overcome lack of sighting equipment. However don't think DR is advocating altering your gun by taking sights off. In my opinion he believes strongly in proper alignment and grip while referring to the pistols sights at distance. In the 2nd Video point shooting is only at extreme close range.

I recommend buying both disk before making up your mind on Fistfire. I expect you will be pleased.

Boa