Drm & Fistfire

[Matt Griffin]

[note: this was split from another thread - Admin.]

Good Day All,

There is a nice segment on Downrange.tv on high speed point shooting where

DR Middlebrooks (sp?) shoots both stars. Interesting technique. So if time, motivation, and bandwidth permit, have a go at it.

Cheers!

Interesting, it brings to mind the old joke about a dog who can ride a tricycle. It's not that he does it well, it's that he does it at all.

If you're going to establish a two-hand grip in front of your face, why wouldn't you use sights? Also, is he just looking down the barrel? Could someone put a gob of chewing gum on top of the slide, and see if he can still "point" shoot?

I don't mean to disparage what he's doing, it's an interesting trick, but he's doing the same thing as everybody else does, except without sights and slower.

H.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Flexmoney

[Flexmoney]

If you're going to establish a two-hand grip in front of your face, why wouldn't you use sights?

I certainly agree with that.

I've went round and round with some of the various point shooters on different forums. Some of them made it rather...frustrating...to converse with them. They didn't know what it was they knew or didn't know. (if that makes any sense)

DRM, on the other hand, has been around the block in competition shooting (which provides a external test).

But, to get back to your question...

The point shooters will tell you that you might not have time to see your sights. Now, I don't believe that. If you have the time to extend the gun, then you have the time to see the sights. What they ought to say is that you may opt, in the heat of the moment, to use a target focus...rather than a sight focus.

Also, is he just looking down the barrel? Could someone put a gob of chewing gum on top of the slide, and see if he can still "point" shoot?

Most of the point shooting crowd would do just fine. DRM, and I think he differs from the most of the others in this regard, realizes that he is shooting from an index. Thus, a big basis of what he does is index based.

That is not unlike the advice that Brian gives in his book...to present the gun with the eyes closed, then open the eyes to see if the sights are aligned and on target.

I don't mean to disparage what he's doing, it's an interesting trick, but he's doing the same thing as everybody else does, except without sights and slower.

Slower ?

I watched the "segment 1". (steel at distance, then the 2 stars) There, the only reason I can see that he would be considered slower is that he was bringing the gun back and then re-presenting it between each shot. (which I thought was rather sporty)

[shred]

FWIW (and nothing to do with the star), DRM in his books says he started from square one with no training and then did things 'his way'. Amazingly enough, 'his way' frequently is very similar to a 'standard' technique, but with a different name, since he hadn't ever been trained in them. Goes to show..

[Matt Griffin]

Slower ?

I watched the "segment 1". (steel at distance, then the 2 stars) There, the only reason I can see that he would be considered slower is that he was bringing the gun back and then re-presenting it between each shot. (which I thought was rather sporty)

Maybe slower is overstating, but he doesn't seem to be breaking shots particularly fast, compared to a M-class USPSA shooter. Versus the average shooter, certainly, but knocking off your sights suggests a certain level of achievement that surpasses most others. In other words, if you're going to do it differently than everyone else, *deleted*

Edit: That sounded too harsh, I have nothing but respect for DR, but I'm just a bit confused by his style. Sorry about that. In other news, the resident troll at Glocktalk is telling DR exactly how to run his shooting tournament. Man, I likes me some brianenos.com.

I guess my main frustration is understanding "why?" Why take the sights off, if you aren't using them? Why point shoot with the same motion that would allow you to shoot sighted? It just seems an awkward way to arrive at a similar destination.

H.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Houngan

[Flexmoney]

Maybe slower is overstating, but he doesn't seem to be breaking shots particularly fast, compared to a M-class USPSA shooter.

Take a closer look. What he is doing is representing the gun for each shot. He is showing a series of one shot presentations in that 1st segment (poppers at distance and the two stars).

In some of the later segments (his 1-2-3 drill on the plate rack, for instance), you get to see a bit more of the speed turned up.

... but knocking off your sights suggests a certain level of achievement that surpasses most others.

What my eye sees is a very well developed presentation, index and NPA.

I guess my main frustration is understanding "why?" Why take the sights off, if you aren't using them?

He has taken them off to prove a point.

I have taken the sights off and shot to allow myself to explore the inputs my sense are given me, other than my sights.

Why point shoot with the same motion that would allow you to shoot sighted? It just seems an awkward way to arrive at a similar destination.

Again, he isn't doing that as the means to the destination. It's a tool to demonstrate.

[Carlos]

Brian's book makes the point that advances in shooting have often come from an open minded approach where one is willing to expirament with new/different ideas and test them against the timer. D.R. claims some disciples who have done well under his instruction. But if I recall, the last time there was an open discussion with him here, it devolved, in part, due to his rigid beliefs as to why his way was "the best;" I do understand that the man is trying to make a living from training & selling books, so his position is understandable. I also followed the GT discussions recently and D.R.'s new game appears to have aspects of both USPSA and IDPA.

[EricW]

Pat Kelley smoked a whole bunch of us sight-using clueless retards at a steel match one year with a Norinco 1911 with no sights, a hammer that was bobbed a la bench grinder, and an IWB holster.

And I'm pretty sure if you asked him, he wasn't *point* shooting to do it.

[JD45]

If he were to shoot a USPSA stage with partials and plenty of no-shoots, say from 5 to 20 yards, how do you think he would do?

Most people should be able to train them themselves to hit by point shooting at reasonable distances on certain types of targets. Kind of like Flex said, even us lower class shooters can shoot from index on certain targets. I do when I shouldn't be.

Is his training for pure self-defense, competition, or both?

[P.E. Kelley]

Sights or no sights I am using my eyes to AIM the gun. I believe DRM does too.

I maintain the ONLY sight less shooting is when you can not see the gun.

I have yet to see DRM or Jerry Usher hold the gun under a table and make hits.

Jim Wall took 3rd overall Limited at area one a few years ago with a 1911 sans sights.

I placed 2nd overall at the Missoula Montana single stack in 2002 with my Argentinian 1911 as issued less the sights. One GM was ahead and one GM directly behind.

Has DRM won any of the major matches that he lists without sights on his pistol? Maybe.

It ain't all that difficult.

That's my take.

Patrick (who really likes to USE sights) Kelley

[SmittyFL]

Yeah Flex..cause, you know shootin' fast and accurate is likely to get you killed on the strizeet!!

[PJONES5]

Yeah Flex..cause, you know shootin' fast and accurate is likely to get you killed on the strizeet!!

pat

[Crusher]

Don't mix up competition training with real life self defense techniques

The mechanics are the mechanics, "true" point/index fire, sighted fire (sights, slide, barrel, wrist, pecker whatever), it's all about the FAST, ACCURATE "projectile delivery" so go with whatever floats your boat and works the fastest (regarless of the enviromental conditions).

FWIW if there was no evolution in the mechanics all would be shooting in the "gunslinger" method al la John Wesley Harden.

[ong45]

FWIW i watched DRM shoot like a bad a** at the 2000 ( i think) handgunner.

He came pretty close to getting by Everett Brunell the year he won the whole enchilada.

[eerw]

why is everyone so freakin rigid about this..

this comes up on every time..

DR is a good shooter..proven in the competition arena..whether he uses sights or not..so what..it works for him..

In Brians book he talks about 4 different levels of focus. and the first is accepting a less refined focus and using index and the top of the gun..

DR has a skill set that some of us don't..

Singlestack wonder..that doesn't make the rest of us wrong..and doesn't mean we can't survive a SD situation.

so people..take a freakin breath..open your minds..and try something..

sounds like the old arguements..of Weaver vs Iso stance..or dot vs iron sights..

try it and train..see if it works for you..before opening your mouth..

[Crusher]

One needs to truly understand the difference between IPSC and real world if they are to survive a gunfight.

One needs to be skilled in the mechanics before the reasonable expectation of survivability/success in any environment, this goes for any of endeavor, business, recreational, professional.

Once you have mastered the mechanics you can chose how to employ them for use in the tactics :{finding means to end: the art of finding and implementing means to achieve immediate or short-term goals (takes a plural verb)}

[sslav]

I am too much of a neophyte in the shooting arena to even try to evaluate a shooting technique's merits as sompared to another technique. D.R. can certainly shoot, no doubt about that.

On the other hand I have a lot of experience with hard selling, self promoting types in areas where I do have expertese. And little time spent over D.R.'s website got all sorts of alarms going off. D.R. Middlebrooks may have invented the bestest and the greatest thing out there. I will never know.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Instead of attacking anyone DRM or others. (who those who know me personally know I'm not the biggest fan of the man) let us just accept things as different, open our minds and use what he is talking about to our advantage.

I am a martial artist, I have studied hundreds of martial arts. I chose the first one to maintain a ranking in which I am eligable to test for 4th degree black belt. i have almost 12 years experience in this art. ALL martial arts will relate back to similar basics and philosophies. in relating this to "point" shooting

we all point shoot, we develop a body index. we learn to break shots that are within certain distances without using our sights. I have recently been training with a Center Axis Relock instructor. and while pretty wild concepts for a USPSA GM to grasp.. they do have some merits.

In no way do i feel that anyone here should totally SELL out to a specitic brand of shooting.. rather, listen, learn and adapt your shooting style to best suit yourself after trying it for enough time to be comfortable doing it their way. remove your ego, your wants and expectations. allow the timer and your true feelings of what makes you do things best to be the real final test.

[Flexmoney]

I moved this topic to the techniques section.

So...we might learn with an open mind.

The behave like an asshat section is somewhere else. Go there if you just can't help yourself to be polite. Don't post the bickering here.

Here...we come to learn.

I'm closing this thread until I can clean it out. I'll likely gut it pretty good. If you had a post here that gets pulled, it may have just been caught up in the storm.

CLOSED for now.

--------------------------------

OK...opening this back up. We can do without the dogpile on DRM...even more so since he can't come here to defend himself.

And, we can do without the tactical/street talk. That is beyond the scope of this forum.

KF

[Sestock]

I know that even when I do not remember seeing the sights and have a good tun I used them. Maybe after enough shooting and repitition you think that you are point shooting even when you are using your sights.

This subject is the scientology of practical shooting.

Not to start a bashing session, but who is this DR Middlebrooks? I have never met him or seen him at a match. I looked up his classification and he hasn't shot a match for a dozen years and is only an A Class Open shooter. Is he some big IDPA person?

Edited April 13, 2007 by Sestock

[Duane Thomas]

Not to pull the focus off DRM but Jim Cirillo says that, under stress, if you're well-practiced at using the sights, he believes that, even if you don't remember seeing the sights, you're still seeing the sights, it's just your subconscious mind has taken over the shooting, thus the sights never register on the conscious mind. He calls this "subliminal sight alignment."

[Paladin]

saw a guy shooting a match once and on a target he took an inordinately long time to shoot..thereafter he started to blaze the remaining targets..he scored all alphas on these 'blazed targets'. we thought it strange shooting and couldnt wait to talk with him..he said he lost his front sight on the target he took long to fire on and just decided to let it all loose then and there since he had nothing to lose..

"IT'S ALL IN THE MIND"..

[Ron Ankeny]

Not to start a bashing session, but who is this DR Middlebrooks?

I guess the guy can shoot.

Blackwater Challenge - Match Champion

Florida I.D.P.A. - State Champion (High Overall)

West Virginia I.D.P.A. - State Champion (High Overall)

2 Time Virginia I.D.P.A. - State Champion (High Overall)

Winchester World Challenge - Stock Gun World Champion

I.D.P.A. Nationals - Enhanced Service Pistol National Champion

3 Time American Handgunner - Stock Gun World Shoot Off Champion

3 Time American Handgunner - IDPA Division World Shoot Off Champion

Here's a link to his site:

Tactical Shooting Academy

[dirtypool40]

As to this thread in general, no thanks. I've had all the koolaid I can stand.

But to reiterate what was striken from the record, and may be again for similar unfathomable reasons....

DR can shoot. I've seen it. I think he's an M or GM in IPSC, IIRC. I've met him and his wife in matches where I was an RO and they always seemed pleasant and professional. No axe here.

As to no-sights, I think it was to demonstrate a point. Clearly some entertaining and impressive things can be done with a well developed NPA or index. How many times, after putting in the time with dry fire, have you made a snappy draw , to have the sights appear right where you were looking? Muscle memory is our friend.

Lastly, and This is NOT directed at DRM, rather at Mall ninja instructors in general; Since when did avoiding the best competition in the world become a credential? "Here's my bona fides; I can't shoot so I must be for real." Perhaps this deserves it's own thread.

Peace out.

[P.E. Kelley]

Not to start a bashing session, but who is this DR Middlebrooks?

I guess the guy can shoot.

Blackwater Challenge - Match Champion

Florida I.D.P.A. - State Champion (High Overall)

West Virginia I.D.P.A. - State Champion (High Overall)

2 Time Virginia I.D.P.A. - State Champion (High Overall)

Winchester World Challenge - Stock Gun World Champion

I.D.P.A. Nationals - Enhanced Service Pistol National Champion

3 Time American Handgunner - Stock Gun World Shoot Off Champion

3 Time American Handgunner - IDPA Division World Shoot Off Champion

Here's a link to his site:

Tactical Shooting Academy

Yes he can.

I was squadded with him at one the of handgunner matches (I sucked big time so I forgot what year). He not only shot well but was a very enjoyable and gracious guy to boot.

On our third run my gun malfed giving him the bout 2 to 1 but he refused to win that way. He not only offered to reshoot that bout but we went to the safe area got my gun working, test fired it and returned to reshoot the bout!

I have read his posts here and on "other boards" and he is pugnacious to say the least.. This is a far cry from the true sportsmanship I experienced.

My point about “point shooting” is that if your gun is in within your view, whether you are focused on it or on the sights or not, you are aiming the gun to hit the target.

Patrick

[EricW]

It's not the ability. It's the demagoguery and its moonies that irritate so.