Reloading

[benny hill]

Shot my first legal match sunday & did O.K. Question is if you are behind cover, a 10 ft. wall with a port on each end, can you reload with retension while moveing from one port to the other while behind cover? Some said yes & some no.

[ChuckS]

Benny,

Welcome to IDPA and the "local rule" phenomenon. This is from Appendix 2 of the rulebook (page 43):

"Once behind cover, a competitor may move behind cover while reloading."

Tell them to RTFB!

How did you do in the match?

Later,

Chuck

A1062 (ret)

[Crusher]

Yes, I do "retention reloads" at times where there are 2 steps or more while behind "cover"

The rule is "all reloads must be intitated and completed while behind cover".

[baa]

As said above, yes, you can move behind cover and do a reload. Any reload.

The problem is that individual IDPA SOs will argue this rule on a regular basis. The reason is they view it as being "gamey" which is a BAD THING in IDPA.

Just point em to the rule book, as Chuck said.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Benny being labeled as a gamer say it ain't so. Benny I say yes to the reload behind cover since you told me reload on the move. I can only guess who you were shooting with;-). Thanks Eric

[revchuck]

Benny - I've been an SO since '99. The folks above are correct.

Since I'm a revolver shooter, I'm a firm believer in the concept that holds, "If you're moving, you're reloading." I add "behind cover" when I'm shooting IDPA.

[RickB]

As said above, yes, you can move behind cover and do a reload. Any reload.

The problem is that individual IDPA SOs will argue this rule on a regular basis. The reason is they view it as being "gamey" which is a BAD THING in IDPA.

Just point em to the rule book, as Chuck said.

We have struggled with this some, at our matches. It's not because moving and reloading is gamey, it's been because we didn't think that being out of view of threats was the same thing as being "behind cover". The way cover is defined, if you cannot see any threats, you are "behind cover". So, if you are standing in the middle of a room, and there is a doorway or window in each wall, but you can't see any threats, you are "behind cover"? The rulebook says you can't leave cover with an empty weapon. In a houseclearing stage, if you run dry at a cover position, should you reload before you head down the hall, because you are leaving your cover position, or, since no threats are visible, you aren't actually leaving cover, so running down the hall while reloading is OK?

[revchuck]

In a houseclearing stage, if you run dry at a cover position, should you reload before you head down the hall, because you are leaving your cover position, or, since no threats are visible, you aren't actually leaving cover, so running down the hall while reloading is OK?

Rick - You're hyper-analysing this. Unless it's a surprise stage, the CoF description should point out where the targets are. If it's a surprise stage and you have to advance down a hallway, would you do it with a half-empty pistol? Also, wallboard is concealment, not cover, in the real world.

The CoF designer should point out what is cover and what isn't in order to clarify this to shooters, and the shooters should ask before shooting if there are any doubts.

[kruger]

We have struggled with this some, at our matches. It's not because moving and reloading is gamey, it's been because we didn't think that being out of view of threats was the same thing as being "behind cover".

Since you used the past tense, has your thinking changed?

What did you define as being "behind cover" in the past?

I remember having this discussion when I took my SO class from you and Dennis Gilbert down in Medford. IIRC our discussion was inconclusive.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

Edited March 5, 2007 by kruger

[Crusher]

Benny FWIW I (and a few others I know) tend to shy away (FAR,FAR AWAY) from the matches that deviate from the rules (IDPA or USPSA for that matter).

We find them less enjoyable that those run with adhearance to the rules and as a byproduct of rule adherance a whole lot less of the "tacti-preaching' goes on.

[Duane Thomas]

I've shot the matches RickB mentions. And this has been an ongoing problem. So much so I've heard numerous SOs (!) and shooters say, as a statement of fact, "You can't reload while moving in IDPA." Of course you can.

I think people get in trouble when they start asking themselves, "Well, in real life would you...." The question is not, "In real life would you...." The question is, "What is legal according to the Rule Book?"

Okay, here's a question for you: You have a shooting position with a wall around which you must engage multiple targets. Then an open area you have to cross to another wall at which you must engage other targets. However you would be screened from all the new targets by the second wall while crossing the open area - they're around and behind the wall. According to the Rule Book, can we reload while crossing the open area? IOW does leaving that first wall constiture "leaving cover" if the second wall is still providing cover from all the unneutralized targets? And please don't say, "Well, in real life would you...." I've already stated how much I care about that.

[Merlin Orr]

If you can't follow the rules (including NO reloading while moving) leave and go shoot USPSA.

At least that is what I was told Sunday at this match. (after I was through with the 3 hour match setup.)

[Matt Cheely]

I think people get in trouble when they start asking themselves, "Well, in real life would you...." The question is not, "In real life would you...." The question is, "What is legal according to the Rule Book?"

In real life I would probably shoot the SO and then run away leaving all the bad guys for everyone else to deal with...

[Duane Thomas]

If you can't follow the rules (including NO reloading while moving) leave and go shoot USPSA.

I honestly think the problem here is SOs who haven't read the Rule Book. Or at the very least didn't understand what they read. There is nothing in the IDPA Rule Book that says you can't reload while moving.

Despite some folks' opinions to the contrary, the IDPA Rule Book was written by a bunch of very smart, very experienced people with a real knack for saying exactly what they mean. If they'd intended you not be able to reload while moving in IDPA, they would have said "You can't reload while moving in IDPA." And they didn't. If it ain't in the Rule Book, de facto it ain't a rule.

[wlktheduk]

Duane: I would answer your question by referring to page 44 of the rule book.

"Shooters may not move from one position of cover to another with an empty gun."

If the walls are defined as "position(s) of cover" you can reload while moving along the first wall, but the reload must be completed before you enter the open area leading to the second wall.

2 different walls, two positions of cover. IMHO

BUT: I can also see what you are saying about the second wall covering you from the second set of targets, and thereby serving as a position of cover.

I'm in my third year of setting up and running IDPA stages at my local club, and this sort of question is part of why I find IDPA CoF's just as hard to design and de-bug as USPSA CoF's

And yes, I have an IDPA SO certification, as well as a USPSA Level 1 Range Officer certification.

So, what's the questions answer?

[Duane Thomas]

"Shooters may not move from one position of cover to another with an empty gun."

I should have specified: In this situation you're not moving between cover positions with an empty gun. You still have ammo in the gun and you're doing a RWR while moving.

This is not a situation where I have "the answer." I'm looking for input and opinions. MY opinion is that you should be able to do it since you're still behind cover from all the unneutralized targets, even if it's not the same piece of cover, and you're not leaving cover with an empty gun. Agreement or dissension are both welcomed.

[Buzzdraw]

You may not leave cover, to continue the COF, until your gun is reloaded. This means mag seated and slide forward with semi-auto or for revolver, the cylinder is closed.

Sometimes people try to argue that the distant cover theory puts them in a situation where they may leave established cover to advance, but are not visible to threats. Good for at least a procedural, maybe a FTDR on their part.

In a COF I write, I'm as specific as possible about cover, be it high or low (requiring kneeling). Also I will stipulate clearly that the top of cover may not be fired over, from low cover. If cover is not available in a COF, often I'll so state, so there isn't an issue. These simple COF inclusions eliminate the need for the SO/MD to deal with "range lawyering". KISS works.

[RickB]

We have struggled with this some, at our matches. It's not because moving and reloading is gamey, it's been because we didn't think that being out of view of threats was the same thing as being "behind cover".

Since you used the past tense, has your thinking changed?

What did you define as being "behind cover" in the past?

I remember having this discussion when I took my SO class from you and Dennis Gilbert down in Medford. IIRC our discussion was inconclusive.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

My thinking hasn't changed, but that's not to say anyone agrees with me. I try never to have a course description that leaves open to interpretation, what I intend (good luck, right?). If there's a wall, that's cover, unless the course description says, "wall A is a vision barrier, and not cover". That way, nobody reloads there, and I don't have to have a "real world" discussion.

The other SOI for your class, by the way, was Jon Gilbert. When is an Oregon club going to host a sanctioned match?

Edited March 6, 2007 by RickB

[Joe D]

The whole cover issue can be a real can of worms. It is usually best to design the stage where it is not an issue. Robert Ray and I have had several conversations about the cover issue. There are certain statements in the rule book that tend to contradict each other.

[COF]

This question came up in the class I taught Saturday. Duane, Are the targets you "neutralized" visible in the area you are crossing to the new shooting position? Since the rulebook isn't specific, the way I SO it and teach SO's is - if there are threat targets, even if you've already engaged them, you must reload before leaving the cover where you engaged them. If there aren't, then you are under cover and may reload while moving to the next engagement point. Is that an interpretation of the rules? Yes, but I think it creates definable criteria - a go/no-go decision.

Another example would be a COF where you engage targets through doorways along a hallway. In this scenario, you would reload before crossing the open doorway where you just engaged targets. Of course, shooting a revolver usually means I'm reloading at each position anyway.

Jerry

[Crusher]

Benny's original question asked about reloading while moving behind cover (of a single wall from port to port). I think the following just about cover ALL possibilities including "moving from one location of cover to another" (which was not the question and is clearly NOT ALLOWED as per the rulebook):

All reloads begin with the shooter’s first action to initiate the reload (ejection of the magazine, drawing a spare magazine, etc.) and end when the weapon is fully charged and ready to fire (magazine fully locked into the weapon and the slide fully

forward or cylinder closed). Reloads can only be initiated while behind cover.

All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and must be completed before leaving cover. A shooter is deemed loaded and may move from a position of cover ONLY when the fresh magazine is FULLY SEATED and the slide is fully forward

or revolver cylinder is closed. Shooters may not move from one position of cover to another with an empty gun. Reloads must be completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter must duck back completely behind cover to reload before

reengaging targets from a stationary firing point. The contestant may keep his eyes on his next “opponent” as long as he follows the definition of cover and does not expose too much of his body to the next threat target.

[Steve Moneypenny]

The IDPA rulebook has closed a lot of those gaps, you can do it legally now as long as it is completely behind cover the whole time. ...

from the gamer stand point.. 10 ft. I might not bother. would depend on the position i would be in for the reload at the end.

[benny hill]

O.K. , I got from the replies that as long as I am behind a wall, I can RWR as I move along behind it behind cover. The next question is on an upcomming stage where you engage three targets from cover & as you move to another cover about 10 yds away you engage a target w/ hardcover while moveing. With a single stack I will shoot the first three 2 times each & the hardcover 3 times on the move. QUESTION, I now am at slide lock , out in the open with 20' left to run. Do I haul ass w/ a empty gun to cover or stop in the OPEN & reload or reload on the move? Does'nt make much sense to run all that way w/ an empty gun.

[Gregg K]

O.K. , I got from the replies that as long as I am behind a wall, I can RWR as I move along behind it behind cover. The next question is on an upcomming stage where you engage three targets from cover & as you move to another cover about 10 yds away you engage a target w/ hardcover while moveing. With a single stack I will shoot the first three 2 times each & the hardcover 3 times on the move. QUESTION, I now am at slide lock , out in the open with 20' left to run. Do I haul ass w/ a empty gun to cover or stop in the OPEN & reload or reload on the move? Does'nt make much sense to run all that way w/ an empty gun.

I have never gotten a definitive answer on this situation you describe. The rule books says that "All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available)". I can't get anyone to define "available", is it 2 yards, 5 yards, 10 yards ? I wish this was in print and not left open to interpretation.

[Brazos SC Shooter]

O.K. , I got from the replies that as long as I am behind a wall, I can RWR as I move along behind it behind cover. The next question is on an upcomming stage where you engage three targets from cover & as you move to another cover about 10 yds away you engage a target w/ hardcover while moveing. With a single stack I will shoot the first three 2 times each & the hardcover 3 times on the move. QUESTION, I now am at slide lock , out in the open with 20' left to run. Do I haul ass w/ a empty gun to cover or stop in the OPEN & reload or reload on the move? Does'nt make much sense to run all that way w/ an empty gun.

This is another place where local rules can come into play. Our local match will not hit you with a penalty if you reload and engage in the open rather than running to the next area of cover.

Here are my two cents. If you load up before you leave and run dry on the way and can reload and continue to engage targets faster than running to cover then I say go for it. If the Cof requires you to engage say 3-4 targets and then engage 2-4 targets while moving on to the next position and you don't load up before you leave position 1, then that is a bad self defense/tactical move and you should get hit with a penalty.