Support For Revolver Division Grows..(shot Show Discussions)

[Hog Sniper]

While at Shot Show Glenn and I had the pleasue to speak with Todd Jarrett who is running for Area 8. First question of the day was "What are your feelings on Revolver Division?" Todd immediatley stated that he fully supports Revolver Division and thinks its a division to be kept. We had a great conversation and he seems like a great guy to be our area 8 rep.

On the way out of the show on Saturday we ran into Mike McCarter who was manning the USPSA booth. We also asked him his feelings on Revolver division since he's running for president. Mike stated that he also fully supports a revolver division. Mike added that the youth program is going VERY well... Mike stated that he will have a web site up and running that will be published in the next Front Sight magazine with a short BIO.

Just a bit of info I thought everyone would like to know.

Shoot well,

Gary

[hopalong]

Great !!!!!!

now if we can just get them elected, and then shooting a Revolver too!

Hopalong

[Carmoney]

Not to get political here, but I know that Gary Stevens is committed to supporting Revolver division also. Other candidates may be equally friendly to our cause.

It would be good to learn the positions of all the candidates on this issue.

[Delta Mike]

Not to get political here, but I know that Gary Stevens is committed to supporting Revolver division also. Other candidates may be equally friendly to our cause.

It would be good to learn the positions of all the candidates on this issue.

Are there any candidates that are decidedly anti revolver? or is it that some just dont care?

Edited January 16, 2007 by Delta Mike

[Jaxshooter]

Thanks for the information. There are several of us that had seriously considered going to revolver but became hesitant when the discussion of dropping the division started. I would be interested to know who supports/opposes it.

[Carlos]

Thanks for the information. There are several of us that had seriously considered going to revolver but became hesitant when the discussion of dropping the division started. I would be interested to know who supports/opposes it.

Good point.

Elections are coming up.

As a citizen/voter, MY vote is secret, but my Senators' and Congressmens' vote is PUBLIC RECORD. So it should be with our USPSA representatives. The position of the running candidates AND the current Area directors should be known (and if they refuse to state their poinion, I would like to know WHY).

BTW, I like revolver - be it USPSA or ICORE; they won't let me play in IDPA, but I would shoot that too if the 5" barrel was allowed.

[RePete]

Not to get political here, but I know that Gary Stevens is committed to supporting Revolver division also. Other candidates may be equally friendly to our cause.

It would be good to learn the positions of all the candidates on this issue.

Are there any candidates that are decidedly anti revolver? or is it that some just dont care?

They probably just don't care.

I love shooting IDPA and IPSC and I do it with both wheelies and bottom feeders, but shooting wheelies is a whole lot more fun but it's more work too.

IDPA is just taking off in Ontario, Canada and I think I'm the only wheelie shooter so I'm the target of great ridicule. An old man shooting an old gun.

I placed 5th overall out of 40 shooters mshooting the 625.

Edited January 17, 2007 by RePete

[dillon]

I spoke with Mike Voigt at the SHOT show. He indicated he would entertain the idea of allowing 8-shot revolvers to compete and fire eight rounds at a time, at a MINOR power factor. There is already precedent for this under the rules for the provisional single stack class.

[Nemo]

I spoke with Mike Voigt at the SHOT show. He indicated he would entertain the idea of allowing 8-shot revolvers to compete and fire eight rounds at a time, at a MINOR power factor. There is already precedent for this under the rules for the provisional single stack class.

Hmmm... I don't know about that. I think I'd rather keep the division at 6 rounds. However, the 8-shot guns can play in production.

[Carmoney]

self-edited........my comments might be a little too political for this forum.

Edited January 17, 2007 by Carmoney

[cliffwalsh]

I spoke with Mike Voigt at the SHOT show. He indicated he would entertain the idea of allowing 8-shot revolvers to compete and fire eight rounds at a time, at a MINOR power factor. There is already precedent for this under the rules for the provisional single stack class.

This is not comparable to single stack division. With the 8 round target arrays we see at most matches, the 8, 9, and 10 shot guns are not much different. The 10 round guy might save a reload on long course. Going from 6 to 8 will not just make fewer reloads but eliminate the standing reload in many situations. I know we all love them so much. I know the rule right now is 9 rounds in an array but most of what I see is 8 shot groups in the matches I shoot. The rule will be changed back to 8 in 2008 (if the new rules are passed).

my .02 Bad Idea.

[hopalong]

I'm all for more revolver shooters, and support. I want to thank those who have championed the cause so far.

I want to ask you fellow wheelgunners a question and let's take our time and think about it before we start discussing it and maybe even it's own poll and thread......but I'll ask here first.

Do we as a Division want to allow the 8 shot guns (even if they are required to shoot minor)?

The BOD has already agreed to let us (as a division) experiment with our 6 shot guns (per Carmoney's list) The 6 shot limit will always keep it an "Indian not the arrow" kind of thing.

If we go and ask for and get 8 shot wheels allowed, will this just make it mandantory to have an 8 shooter vs. the 6 shooter?(similar to ICORE)

Will it cause an "Equipment race" similar to what eventually turned into the Limited Division (may take a few years) and turn the ordinary guy with his 686 off because it apears that to shoot in this game it requires a 627 ($1000.00 gun) and all kinds of other "special" stuff?

I already hear too much of that from new shooters that show up with their Colt .45, glock, Sig, Ruger P89 ect. watch the limted and Open guys and gals run like banshees and then never come back.

Right now, the revolver division is the closest thing to a real Production division (just no autos allowed! ) do we want to keep it that way, or allow it to go the way of the 2011s of now days?

I am not saying one way or the other what I would like it to be (yet) but just want the most verbal, and visible members of the "wheelgunners" to really sit down and think about it.

(although, I doubt much of or anything comes out of it for a while).......remember, some of the BOD still would not mind seeing the Division go away!

Think about it.

Hopalong

Edit to add;

Remember, Baby steps.........even though the division saw a 50% increase at the Nationals, it was only 33.

Edited January 18, 2007 by hopalong

[Bubber]

Hop, I would love to shoot my eight shot against the six shots.... But it would be an unfair advantage. Not that I can shoot better but the advantage of having the 2 extra shots even scoring minor will save me and anyone else a lot of time over a course of fire. It has been discussed before. Just my take.

[underlug]

Hop, I would love to shoot my eight shot against the six shots.... But it would be an unfair advantage. Not that I can shoot better but the advantage of having the 2 extra shots even scoring minor will save me and anyone else a lot of time over a course of fire. It has been discussed before. Just my take.

Optimal for me would be to leave revolver @six and allow the 8 shots in Production, as proposed, and in Single Stack.

Everybody could play, and, there would be no Revolver equipment race.

My opinion. Worth at least twice what you paid for it

[AzShooter]

I'd like to see it stay at 6 shot maximum. The eight shooter really changed ICORE and helps to have one to be competitive. Those extra rounds can make a big difference even with minor scoring when one shooter has to take a few seconds to reload and another doesn't to finish the COF.

Just my thoughts.

[haras]

6 for me, too

[Daniele]

I vote x 8 .

Someone talked about the poor man with a 686 now can compete; let me say I lost 1 year playing with a speedloaded 686, only moonclips assure reliable reloads, so money is needed to modify the 686 or to buy the winning tool: a 625 in 45 ACP!

It is already an equipment race!

Let people decide: less reloads and points or more reloads and points!

Allowing 8 shot (357 as Major) in single stack will be one more option for revo fans.

[pskys2]

I thought about it for a while, wondering if it would help bring in new competitors.

What I came up with was this:

1) Most new competitors either had a 6 shot S&W, or wanted one to get started as they didn't have anything at all.

2) The time difference between reloads and minor with a Revo gives a decided advantage to saving reloads.

3) Unlike ICORE, with IPSC COF rules there is no way to offset the reload advantage.

4) It's my opinion that sooner or later it would cause more problems as new competitors, without the "arrow" philosophy started competing. Leading to an arms race, or serious complaining with sour grapes poisoning the well, so to speak.

5)The precedence for the existing rules are also the same as allowing L10 or Prod to use any mags, just don't shoot(load) more than allowed.

After careful consideration I think the debate should be whether to push a more than 6 rounds fired violation into open or treat it as a procedural.

Either way I think the powers to be who created USPSA Revo Div had it right keeping it at 6 shots, but allowing 7/8 shots to be loaded but not fired.

My .02 don't count though, as the future of the penny is pretty bleak.

[cliffwalsh]

Well put Dave.

The 8 shooters can play in L-10 ( I do often) or Production. If 2 extra rounds are not an advantage, everyone should be happy.

[sargenv]

I say stick with 6 shooter and shoot your 8 shooter Prod or L10. Dan and John generally do this here locally and I think John won L10 with his 627 and he beat everyone else who were shooting their 1911's in major. There was another shooter here shooting his Open ICORE 627 and he made B open shooting minor. I believe he was on his way to A before he went on hiatus.

Vince

[LPatterson]

I would vote to keep it at 6 because I just bought a S&W 625. I have never seen an advertisement for an ICOR match in Montana so it is not a choice I have to worry about.

[R112mercer]

I'm for 6 shots max.

I'm thankful to the BOD (Esp. Gary & George) for allowing the modifications to the Revolver Division Rules and the amendment to the Production Division Rules to allow revolver shooters to wear their moons up front.

Special thanks also to Mike Carmoney for spearheading this initiative.

We got what we wanted, I'd hate to make it look like we came back for a bigger bite after the BOD just took special consideration for a Division many guys don't give a crap about.

And I like the six shot limit. I'll use my eight shooter in ICORE.

[Hog Sniper]

6 shooter for me too!!

[Barrettone]

Well Fellas, while I am not sold on the idea of a 6-shot-major and 8-shot-minor, I AM intrigued by it. I think we got a lot done at this last rules revision. As Hop said...baby steps. HOWEVER, I think that we should not close the door on the idea, and should at least "table it" until we have a little more complete information so we can make a solid, facts-based decision. This is what I reccommend:

1) We let it ride for now, and get the 2008 rules approved as we have proposed them.

2) We then have some club level matches over the next year or two that are "approved" to run the provisional rules we outlined with 6 shooters being scored major and 7 or 8 shooters being scored minor (we should keep it to 8 shooters though to get accurrate results).

3) We tabulate the differences with the same shooters shooting the same COF's with the two different wheelies and make a comparison.

4) We assess this information and then decide if the idea makes sense (ie it is a wash, or a serious advantage one way or the other).

5) We make our proposal to the BoD (if necessary).

Total time elapsed: 12-24 months. Hopefully in this time, Revo Division has grown, and we can justify the whole concept. By just sitting back on the forum here and hypothisizing about it, we are really accomplishing nothing. We can be pro-active without going for everything we might want RIGHT NOW. What say ye revo brethren???

[Carmoney]

We got what we wanted, I'd hate to make it look like we came back for a bigger bite after the BOD just took special consideration for a Division many guys don't give a crap about.

An excellent point, Rob.

The new rules will expand the playing field a little, and protect our guys from outside nitpickers, without making any sweeping fundamental changes that would risk upsetting the good thing we already have going.

Well Fellas, while I am not sold on the idea of a 6-shot-major and 8-shot-minor, I AM intrigued by it.

I'm intrigued too. But more in the academic sense. I believe it would be closer to a wash than most people realize. However, I fear that such a plan would inevitably create the perception of a big equipment race, which is something we have managed to avoid nicely here in our little (but growing) corner of IPSC/USPSA.