From Withing Fault Lines

[RickB]

The classifier at a local club match was thrown out today; I don't know the number, but it consisted of three PP and three USP, set ten yards downrange of a barricade. At start, engage the targets from within the fault lines. Someone, including an RO, decided that shooters did not have to start in, or shoot from the box. Apparently, the MD got into it with some shooters who were adamant that "from within fault lines" did not reference the shooting box attached to the barricade, and as long as they started with their hands on the X's painted on the barricade, they could start and shoot from wherever they wanted. It appeared, during the RO walkthrough, that the MD was anticipating some trouble, because he made a comment along the lines of, "I won't comment on the status of the box". How can "from within fault lines" be intepreted as anything other than "within the box"? Of course, saying "within box A" would have been nice, but still? Is there some "buzz" concerning this classifier?

[ima45dv8]

Is this it?

I hate when people game classifiers.

[toowide]

Is this it?

I hate when people game classifiers.

if that is the one, it looks pretty self explanatory to me. with no other fault lines in the diagram the box is the fault line.

[Chris Keen]

IMO that classifier "sounds" like what RickB was referring to .......... how could anyone game that ? There are only 4 fault lines, and they surround the BOX.

"From within fault lines" certainly supersedes my desire to start ON the box. :lol:

[Interceptor]

I think they should amend the stage description to indicate what they want specifically. If they want all shots fired from within box A, they should say that. On stages that typically have faultlines, the faultlines are labeled. Assumption and Intent have no place on a classifier diagram. One sentence could have made it all better.

[Flexmoney]

I think they should amend the stage description to indicate what they want specifically. If they want all shots fired from within box A, they should say that.

They did.

I think this is one that originally came out without the words "from within the fault lines".

Those were added.

We have no boxes in USPSA anymore. So, the new classifier had the proper wording.

This one has fault lines that happen to form a nice pretty box.

[Tman33_99]

Actually the wording is still wrong. The rear line is not a fault line, even though we all call it that quite often. It is actually a charge line.

I wish we could have a definition of box. It would make things easier.

2.2.1.1 Charge Lines are used to restrict unreasonable movement

by competitors toward or away from targets.

2.2.1.2 Fault Lines are used to force the competitor to shoot at targets

from behind physical barriers. They may be positioned

at any angle extending to the rear of these barriers. Fault

Lines should be a minimum of 1 meter (3.28 feet) in length

and unless otherwise stated in the written stage briefing,

they are deemed to extend rearwards to infinity.

[Jim Norman]

So why not define a box?

2.2.1.3 Box, a shooting area defined by four falut lines intersecting to form a rectangle. The box need not be a square. The fault lines defining the box should be no less than 24" in length and no longer than 96", maximum square footage of a shooint box is 32 square feet. All measurements are based upon the actual lengths of the individual fault lines making up the box. Do not add the width of the lines to the lentgh of the intersecting lines. Fault line may not be wider than a standard 2 x 4 dimensional piece of lumber (3-5/8")

Futher, we probably could use a definition of In and Out of the box. Specifically, if you are standing on top of the fault line and NOT TOUCHING the ground, you are good to go. If the shooter wants to start standing on the fault lines, so be it, unless the WSB specifically says heels or toes touching the inside edge of the fault lines defining the box, or some other such wording. A definition allows for gaming and more importantly removes the bias of any particular CRO/RO from the calls regarding the position.

Jim Norman

[TDean]

A box is 4 fault-lines. According to the written discription, the shooter has to engage the targets from within the box, but they can start anywhere they want as long as their hands are on the X's.

[Albert]

I was actually in one of the squads where the ROs were adamant about shooting it outside of the box based on the description given. There was some discussion with the Match Director after we had gone through half of the squad shooting it outside the box and the words "intent" and the phrase "in the spirit" came up and the ROs of our squad stated there is no intent in USPSA. Of course the MD decided that since some squads were shooting in the box and others out, he decided to throw the classifier out. I came with a friend who would have benefited from getting a classifier completed and now he has shot a match without one.

I agree the description should identify the box and when you leave it the way it was written that is an easy way for the so called "gamers" to game the stage. It is a game right?

Also, I had to shoot through a stage I had just shot as no one recorded my time previously and the person who put the stage together also claimed that shooting the classifier outside the box was not the "intent" or was not "in the spirit" of the game.

I had hoped we would get to re-shoot the stage in the box, but as it was, that did not happen. That description needs to be changed IMO.

Albert

[TDean]

I think the written discription is fine the way it is.

It seems some shooters (ROs) were confused about a box being fault lines. Perhaps they're used to ONLY straight lines being fault lines. Not true.

The stage should have been re-shot, or $3 returned to each shooter since the score weren't submitted.

[Precision40]

Was there an actual box or just painted lines? If there was a box, then theres no reason they shouldn't have gotten a PE for each shot. JMHO. I don't buy the excuse that they don't believe boxes are not fault lines.

[bgary]

It seems some shooters (ROs) were confused about a box being fault lines.

I'm having a hard time imaging that anyone who has shot more than a few USPSA matches would be confused about the box behind a barricade. The whole *point* of the barricade is to make you shoot from behind it, otherwise it is just taking up room on the bay floor. No... I rather suspect that either someone wanted to get an edge in the match, or send in a smokin' classifier. I rather doubt that "confusion" was a root cause.

The stage should have been re-shot, or $3 returned to each shooter since the score weren't submitted.

totally agree!

Bruce

[eerw]

I don't get gaming that one..

four faultlines make the box..one in front to restrict movement forward, one to each side to restrict movement to each side and one in the rear to restrict movement rearward..

I think pretty obvious and no need to argue intent or spirit..

that is pretty well marked..and explained in the the stage briefing

[Tman33_99]

A box with four sides is actually made with 2 charge lines and 2 fault lines. The charge lines make up the front and rear, and the fault lines make up the sides. This is in accordance with the current definitions within the rules.

I am all for simplyfing things and droping charge lines and making fault lines include lines that restrict movement towards or away from targets as well.

[Nik Habicht]

The stage should have been re-shot, or $3 returned to each shooter since the score weren't submitted.

I'm having a hard time imaging that anyone who has shot more than a few USPSA matches would be confused about the box behind a barricade. The whole *point* of the barricade is to make you shoot from behind it, otherwise it is just taking up room on the bay floor. No... I rather suspect that either someone wanted to get an edge in the match, or send in a smokin' classifier. I rather doubt that "confusion" was a root cause.

The stage should have been re-shot, or $3 returned to each shooter since the score weren't submitted.

totally agree!

Bruce

Ummmm, wouldn't that be a $1.50 refund per shooter for the classifier fee? Surely you guys aren't advocating not reporting the match and depriving USPSA of activity fees?

[racerba]

Due to the RO and/or squad that was adament about shooting outside the "box" - you guy/s screwed it up for everyone else. How do you justify shooting outside the "box"? We have not heard the reasoning fom anybody yet to justify shooting outside the box. How do you "game" a stage by breaking the rules???

[BSeevers]

I don't get why people think shooting outside that Box is right or gaming. Come on. You are scaring me.

PS I believe gaming is great shooting and do it whenever I can.

[ima45dv8]

I don't get why people think shooting outside that Box is right or gaming. Come on. You are scaring me.

PS I believe gaming is great shooting and do it whenever I can.

You're right, Bill. Gaming is an honorable part of our sport. I'll rephrase my earlier comment:

I hate when people cheat on classifiers.

[AikiDale]

I keep having this image of former President Clinton saying, with a straight face, "...it depends what the meaning of 'is' is."

[SmittyFL]

I hope this is a joke. What retard would think the stage is to be shot from anywhere other than in the box? (assuming we're talking about 06-10)

Our rule book is going to be 3 volumes and 800 pages because of dumbasses like that.

[Micah]

IMHO, asking is always free. I'm not a GM yet, and if I see an angle (that is legal) I am going to take it!

[driver8M3]

I hope this is a joke. What retard would think the stage is to be shot from anywhere other than in the box? (assuming we're talking about 06-10)

+1...did these guys think that the dotted lines that indicate the location of the barricade and poppers were the fault lines? have they ever seen a classifier diagram before? i think just about every one of the diagrams has dotted lines showing how to set everything up.

[PJONES5]

I hope this is a joke. What retard would think the stage is to be shot from anywhere other than in the box? (assuming we're talking about 06-10)

Our rule book is going to be 3 volumes and 800 pages because of dumbasses like that.

+ 1000 Shannon.

I can't believe this topic is even being discussed.

pat

[LPatterson]

The only arguement here should have been if a shooter tried to shoot standing on the fault lines. If you are standing on the fault line are you still within the fault line? Yes unless you are touching the ground outside the fault line. The MD started the problem when he said he wouldn't comment on the status of the box. Even for local matches the MD should be a certified CRO.