What Do You Think Of The Idpa Rules?

[Duane Thomas]

I voted to follow the rules all the time. I feel I should clarify. I have gotten, I think, a reputation at our club as a bit of a gamer - and I don't understand why. Maybe it's because, occasionally, I see a way to shoot a course of fire that no one else did. Thing is, I'm very, very serious about always following the rules. That's why I know them. And if I see a way to shoot the course of fire that's more efficient than anyone else, and 100 percent legal, am I going for it? You bet I am.

[freeidaho]

I have gotten, I think, a reputation at our club as a bit of a gamer - and I don't understand why.

Duane, everyone;

At the risk of answering a rhetorical question asked by a moderator, here goes.

Most labels are at least a bit accurate. I will answer in general with what I see at matches.

Imagine someone with a funeral like demeanor, that asks the SO dozens of questions before shooting, disecting every aspect of the COF for a loophole, evaluating the knowledge of the SO, and even asking the same question over and over again to see if they can get some wiggle room. That leaves an impression.

All perfectly legal within the rules, but probably not needed if one just shoots the COF as intended, and competes purely on their accuracy and speed.

Ken Reed

[firewalker]

+2 Ken

" That leaves an impression"

We may never have the chance to be judged by our shooting abilities, If we are first judged by our attitudes

[kdmoore]

Imagine someone with a funeral like demeanor, that asks the SO dozens of questions before shooting, disecting every aspect of the COF for a loophole, evaluating the knowledge of the SO, and even asking the same question over and over again to see if they can get some wiggle room. That leaves an impression.

I sometimes get labled that, don't know why?

My mind is active. Usually, at the walkthru, I'll spot a place where there is ambiguity, and I'll ask "claryfying questions". To me, I don't want to get beat by someone else doing what I thought of. But I ask my questions up front, for all to hear. Usually, I ask a question because I see there is a way to shoot the stage that doesn't appear to go as intended, but the MD/Course designer hadn't seen it. I'm giving them a chance to state what wasn't expressley stated.

They don't always get it. About a year ago, at a club that has a lot of entry level folks, there was a course with 3 targets. MD stated to draw and shoot first from retention and back up (3 yards or so) and shoot remaining targets from around cover. I asked if you could only shoot the first target backing up. He said "no, if you have time you can shoot them all". I don't think he thought I could, but he wasn't thinking as I knew I could and he knew I could if he thought about it (you don't have to move very fast).

I was about the 4th or 5th shooter, and shot it as he allowed. After he cleared me, he stated that wasn't what he had in mind, and told everyone else not to shoot it that way. I offered to reshoot, but what was done was done.

For me, the "claryfying question" was to help him state something like, "shoot only the first target on the retreat" (the written COF and oral COF weren't clearly stated). I really didn't think he wanted it, but I asked, and I wasn't going to pester him (he doesn't like to feel "bested" in front of the crowd).

In another COF, I retreated to the far side of a barricade, as it took a no shoot out of play and allowed me to shoot everything on the move. I was one of the last to shoot, had asked specifically if we could go to other side of barricade (tactically a no no as you stay exposed a little longer). I never shot from the barricade having finished before I got there. The course was set up so that if you retreated to the near side of the barricade the no shoot forced you to go accross the back of the to be ultra safe, or take a well aimed shot from the near side. I did neither.

I did not see this during the COF walkthru. I was shooting in the last squad, and didn't know what others had done. I asked the SO, and he said OK. I asked him to check with the MD, who also said ok.

Karma got me, I had a FTF. I shot the second best time on that stage even with that clearance drill.

Afterwards a fellow shooter/friend said something like "well, no one else shot it that way" like I had done something wrong. I'd have felt bad, or like I had cheated if I hadn't asked. I'm not afraid to try and "shoot it the same way everyone else does, only faster/cleaner". But I'm going to feel pretty stupid if someone else uses my idea to beat me ....

Back to the point. I don't feel bad about asking the questions. I don't do it to gain advantage, I do it to level the stage. I design a few stages now and again, so I'm always looking at other's work to see what I'd word differently, I guess. But yea, I've got a local label......

[Jane]

Back to the point. I don't feel bad about asking the questions. I don't do it to gain advantage, I do it to level the stage. I design a few stages now and again, so I'm always looking at other's work to see what I'd word differently, I guess. But yea, I've got a local label......

This is drifting slightly off topic from the original poll question about observance of the rules as they exist. (To which I voted if you play Bill's game, play Bill's rules.)

I've heard (USPSA) shooters complain about IDPA having "so many rules"... but when I took the USPSA RO class last Spring it was obvious that USPSA has at least as many.

What I personally find least appealing about IDPA is the scripting of stages. For a while, we had one guy who'd design a stage something like

Start holding money bag.

At the buzzer, shoot the first two targets strong-hand only while retreating.

Do a mandatory RWR behind cover, then shoot the next three targets in tac sequence.

Do another mandatory reload.

Shoot the popper from behind cover.

Then shoot the last two targets weak hand only.

Well... why should I try to remember all that crap? (Please to excuse unladylike language. )

I know this is a somewhat extreme example, but to a large extent stages then become a matter of short-term memory recall under pressure, rather than "solving the problem" and shooting well. What was that line from the Butch Cassidy film? "There ARE no rules in a knife fight, Butch!"

OK... I feel better now.

Edited to add:

This actually is somewhat relevant, in view of the comments about asking the SO what's permitted, shooting the stage in a way other than as intended by the COF designer, etc.

I really prefer stages where you just follow the rules - use cover, don't leave ammo behind, and deal with the situation... rather than having to perform a specified ballet....

Edited September 5, 2006 by Jane

[vincent]

+1 to Janes comments. Bad stage design can quickly take the fun out of the game.

[bruce282]

I didn't vote for any of the choices, I was hoping for something along the lines of "Have all the ambiguities removed."

No where have I seen anyone explain how in one part of the rules Vickers is (not verbatim) described as 'shoot as many rounds as you want', and in another section a reason for that match killing FTDR is round dumping, shooting more than the minimum number of rounds required.

Or this:

IDPA is a shooting sport that uses practical

equipment including full charge service

ammunition to solve simulated “real world”

self-defense scenarios.

Never seen any 130PF .40S&W or .45ACP "full charge service ammunition".

I enjoy shooting IDPA. I shoot a local indoor match each month, and have shot the Carolina Cup, the PA State, and last years MD State. I had blast at all of them and plan to shoot them again according to the current rules in effect at the time.

Oh yea, I think total memory stages (in either IDPA or USPSA) should be outlawed.

Bruce

[RickB]

A lot of what I've read here, in terms of complaints, should be directed at the individual SO or course designer, who gave you ambiguous calls and/or ambiguous stages, and not at the rule book. If the course design is good, there shouldn't be much room for getting into trouble with the rules.

If a CoF is properly described, and properly laid out, there should really be only one way to shoot it. I hear a lot of people describing situations where they got dinged for shooting a stage in a "totally different" or "very creative" way, and that doesn't suprprise me; the creativity should remain in the mind of the course designer, not the shooter.

We hosted a sanctioned match a few weeks ago, and a large part of the staff match is confirming that after fifteen shooters had shot a stage, that there was no "other" way to shoot it. If we discover that a target can be seen from a place the designer didn't anticipate, we put up a vision barrier. If allowing make-up shots from cover, on an array that is to be engaged on-the-move, would encourage shooters to run to cover rather than engage on the move, then that should be addressed in the course description, not by dinging shooters who discover the oversight. If you want to shoot the head three times, when what is being simulated is a failure to stop with two to the body, then we separate the target with a strip of tape at the neck, and say two to T1 and one to T2. Course designers, MDs, etc. owe it to shooters to eliminate ambiguity, and while asking questions helps, there shouldn't be lots of questions to ask.

I voted for following the rules to the letter at sanctioned matches, but letting the equipment and other, non-safety rules slide at local matches. Some new, interested shooters don't have legal gear, but I'm not going to send them home, and lose a shooter.

We had a "revolver match" this year, and allowed any 6-shot revo, and any safe holster, to encourage folks to try it. That seems perfectly reasonable, and I doubt that anyone in Berryville would voice a complaint.

It's something else entirely, when clubs decide that a rule isn't "tactical" or isn't logical, and decide to ignore it. Or, they institute a rule that can't be supported by the book, because it IS "tactical". We had a number of rules interpretations at our club that I'm sure were not what Bill Wilson himself had intended, but they were not at odds with the rules, just not the way someone else might interpret them (not to hijack the thread, but just for anyone who's interested, we decided that "if cover is available" meant, "if there is cover on the stage". Some clubs interpreted "available" to mean the shooter was at that moment already at cover. Others decided it meant two steps from cover, etc. You can't argue that any of those interpretations is in direct violation of the rule, even if you disagree with the interpretation).

[dlcrouch]

as a new shooter trying to decide about trying IDPA, i've found this thread interesting and entertaining - but i'm more confused than ever.

I was hoping IDPA would be

1) Fun

2) A chance to learn some saftety and self defense skills that might make a difference

Based on this and other threads, i have learned

1) i need to spend at least $ 100 on equipment that may or may not be legal

2) I most likely won't understand the rules. Is there a rule about shooting with one hand and holding the rule book with the other?

3) "just show up - we love new shooters"

Sorry for the rant - i'm one of those people who need to understand how something works before I try it...

[AikiDale]

as a new shooter trying to decide about trying IDPA, i've found this thread interesting and entertaining - but i'm more confused than ever.

I was hoping IDPA would be

1) Fun

2) A chance to learn some saftety and self defense skills that might make a difference

Based on this and other threads, i have learned

1) i need to spend at least $ 100 on equipment that may or may not be legal

2) I most likely won't understand the rules. Is there a rule about shooting with one hand and holding the rule book with the other?

3) "just show up - we love new shooters"

Sorry for the rant - i'm one of those people who need to understand how something works before I try it...

Hello David, and welcome to the forums!

There are several shooting sports which allow you to draw and shoot several targets as quickly as you accurately can. These are USPSA/IPSC, IDPA, NRA Action Pistol and Steel Challenge just to get started. The rules are different for each game, but each is a wonderful way to learn to safely use a pistol quickly and accurately.

Being able to quickly and accurately bring a pistol into play are the most important marksmanship skills needed for self defense. All the rest is 'tactics'. Shooters get religious about their tactics, and fanatic about their preferred sport as I am sure you have gleaned from this thread.

I have found nearly all the shooters in each of these sports to be wonderful people. There are those who just have to have the "My sport is more 'tactical', or more 'practical' or just plain more fun attitude of course, but we try to keep it all in good humor here.

You will find many shooters shoot several disciplines and enjoy them all. I shoot USPSA, IDPA, and Steel Challenge. I'd shoot AP but it is just not convenient for me yet (but if BigDave keeps proselytizing I'm sure I'll find and enjoy a match soon).

If you have a gun, a quality holster that fits the gun (this need not be expensive, but avoid the one holster fits many gun soft nylon type) on a good stiff belt and a handfull of spare magazines (or moon clips or speed loaders if you shoot revolver) you will be welcome at any club I have ever heard of to shoot what you have and have a good time. After seeing what the cool kids have you may or may not choose to enlarge you inventory of guns and accouterments but that is more lust than necessity.

Again, welcome! Now visit that club and enjoy the range time.

Dale

[Mayonaise]

as a new shooter trying to decide about trying IDPA, i've found this thread interesting and entertaining - but i'm more confused than ever.

I was hoping IDPA would be

1) Fun

2) A chance to learn some saftety and self defense skills that might make a difference

Based on this and other threads, i have learned

1) i need to spend at least $ 100 on equipment that may or may not be legal

2) I most likely won't understand the rules. Is there a rule about shooting with one hand and holding the rule book with the other?

3) "just show up - we love new shooters"

Sorry for the rant - i'm one of those people who need to understand how something works before I try it...

IDPA is fun. And you don't need a lot of expensive equipment. You can bring your gun, 3 magazines, holster and double mag carrier and a shirt or jacket.

IDPA is a great place to test your carry gear in a match environment. Learn good gun handling and safety. And learn how to draw from concealment. That said. It is a game. Not proper training.

The rules are simple and common sense. It's not rocket science.

And yes! Just show up! We do like new shooters. All the pistol sports are filled with friendly shooters who are willing to help new people.

Go watch a match if you want, then try it. Or if you have the gear, dive in. You won't be the first new guy to have ever shown up.

Mark

Edited September 6, 2006 by Mayonaise

[markd]

My vote was to burn the book with no hesitation. Most of the IDPA rules are so subjective that they attract jerk SOs like flies to you know what. The cover rules are ambiguous and a bad call waiting to happen. The magazine retention rules are rediculous from a fun or tactical perspective. IDPA matches have become "rules" contests instead of shooting contests. I love the IDPA concept but the rules and the application of the rules has totally ruined IDPA for me and I will likley never shoot another IDPA match because of the rules and because of how hard IDPA tries to bash and be different from IPSC. In a recent survey published in the IDPA journal almost half of IDPA shooters also shot IPSC. This poll shows the majority voting as I did in extreme discontent with the current IDPA rules. Is anybody listening??????

[tightloop]

We are listening, but the majority of us are hoarse from yelling it for the last few years...to no avail, I might add...Most of us have moved on, but occasionally a good rant like this one could have been, gets some of us stirred up...

[Bear23]

At our club, we follow the rules.

New shooters get a break with equipment and cover. After a few times they show up with the right gear...I have yet to hear any complaints. Newer shooters don't get dinged for rules infractions as much, until they get a hold of the game and have a basic understanding of the rules..usually 2 to 3 matches.

I don't like the holster rules, the older list was better IMHO.

I don't like the fact you can't move to cover and reload even though you have annihilated the targets in you field of view.

Tactical sequence makes little to no sense, tactical priority does.

Other than that, the rules are fine....But i wish you could shoot a stage with a little more 'freedom' in interpretation, rather than engage in yada yada fashion every time.

I also like this forum since i don't have to sign my name...

[Topmaul]

Let me say this about IDPA rules, I shot my second IDPA match last night, and some of the rules I did like and some I did not like, some of the ROs I liked some I did not like. It's fine so far I plan to read the rule book today cover to cover, and see if I'm as screwed up as they seemed to think I was. I seriously want to find the rule that says no combat reloading in IDPA, that is a hard habbit to break I cound all my shots subconsiously when I'm on my last round I usually slip a fresh mag in the gun. To avoid a slide lock slowdown. It also allows me to keep the target covered while reloading.

As far as rules go if that the rules play by them even if you don't like all of them or find another game I might suggest TSA they have a whole new mindset. http://www.tacticalshooting.com/tsa/rulebook.html

Bear, I got dinged for shooting the wrong bad guy, out of sequence, I got dinged for my leg being out of cover a little, and combat reloading. I guess I need to get used to a tactical sequence, when I shoot the first guy it's pretty unlikely that the other two are going to stand there and wait thier turn politely.

I think the purpos is to get the round count up a little.

One general statement, in big money matches the ROs have to go by the book to avoid truble and complaints maybe event bad blood and law suits, in local club matches they should go by the book as much as possible because if shooters get into "bad habbits" it could really hurt when real money is on the line.

Edited September 7, 2006 by Topmaul

[PJONES5]

My vote was to burn the book with no hesitation. Most of the IDPA rules are so subjective that they attract jerk SOs like flies to you know what. The cover rules are ambiguous and a bad call waiting to happen. The magazine retention rules are rediculous from a fun or tactical perspective. IDPA matches have become "rules" contests instead of shooting contests. I love the IDPA concept but the rules and the application of the rules has totally ruined IDPA for me and I will likley never shoot another IDPA match because of the rules and because of how hard IDPA tries to bash and be different from IPSC. In a recent survey published in the IDPA journal almost half of IDPA shooters also shot IPSC. This poll shows the majority voting as I did in extreme discontent with the current IDPA rules. Is anybody listening??????

BYE BYE

PAT

[Mike P]

My vote was to burn the book with no hesitation. Most of the IDPA rules are so subjective that they attract jerk SOs like flies to you know what. The cover rules are ambiguous and a bad call waiting to happen. The magazine retention rules are rediculous from a fun or tactical perspective. IDPA matches have become "rules" contests instead of shooting contests. I love the IDPA concept but the rules and the application of the rules has totally ruined IDPA for me and I will likley never shoot another IDPA match because of the rules and because of how hard IDPA tries to bash and be different from IPSC. In a recent survey published in the IDPA journal almost half of IDPA shooters also shot IPSC. This poll shows the majority voting as I did in extreme discontent with the current IDPA rules. Is anybody listening??????

I doubt it. I suppose that I am lucky in that I've not run into the "jerk ROs" that you have experienced.(SO's in IDPA) The rules are what they are, and when someone whose responsibility it is to enforce them does so, it doesn't make them a jerk. That said, I ain't real happy with some of the newer ones either, but I have a book and know what they are, and I also have a choice to participate or not to participate.

Like the people in the poll, I belong to and participate in USPSA competition too and enjoy it, but there are things I don't paticularly care for there to, with regard to the rules. (the silly headless target for one) Like anything else, there are changes we'd all make to suit us better individually and sometimes as a group. I just follow the rules on the ground and cry in my beer later when it doesn't work out, it works as well as crying to anyone else.

[markd]

People can affect change! The existence of the USA and the whole Boston Tea Party thing are proof positive that when folks get tired of a real injustice, things change. A leg out from behind cover??? Where was the body. If the body is safe, the feet and leg procedural penalties are every bit as bad as the dreaded fault line in IPSC. Oh and by the way....if a shooter is breaking the cover rule and the SO has time to yell cover the shooter gets no penalty. However, if the shooter is fast or if the SO is slow then the shooter gets dinged!!! A fast top class shooter with a slow SO is screwed!!! I also hate the reloading while moving restriction. As long as you are behind cover why not let the shooter reload??? How about the knee on the ground rule?? Is that so lard butt shooters who cannot squat can still be competitive cause we are making everyone kneel. Long as you are effectively using cover what difference does it make if your dang knee is on the ground?? I do love the shooting sports and have played hard for three decades. I just hate to see something with as much potential as IDPA turn into such a nit picky rule fest that so many shooters feel threatened, or somehow fouled by the rules and the application of those rules. Sure I could keep my mouth shut and take my toys and go play USPSA but lying down and giving up is not the American way nor is it my way!

[tightloop]

markd

Good luck getting the rules straightened out.... ...but unless you are personal friends with Bill Wilson, don't think any amount of lobbying, cajoling, pleading, begging, urging, or anything else will alter the way things are done in IDPA, regardless of how logical or apparent the changes are to you or most shooters...

Just like Dragnet..Just the facts...

[GmanCdp]

My vote was to burn the book with no hesitation. Most of the IDPA rules are so subjective that they attract jerk SOs like flies to you know what. The cover rules are ambiguous and a bad call waiting to happen. The magazine retention rules are rediculous from a fun or tactical perspective. IDPA matches have become "rules" contests instead of shooting contests. I love the IDPA concept but the rules and the application of the rules has totally ruined IDPA for me and I will likley never shoot another IDPA match because of the rules and because of how hard IDPA tries to bash and be different from IPSC. In a recent survey published in the IDPA journal almost half of IDPA shooters also shot IPSC. This poll shows the majority voting as I did in extreme discontent with the current IDPA rules. Is anybody listening??????

game: something played for fun: an activity that people particapte in, together or on their own,for fun...

this is what it's about..Grrrrrr ...if you don't like or understand or refuse to understand or comprehend[verb:to grasp the meaning or nature of something ]sic:the rules... then don't play[the game]...there are at least 10,000 of us who understand what the

'game " is about and we/us /them/they all "comprehend" and enjoy participating in the "game"..or..we can just get out..it's a "game of "rules".just like any other "shooting "game. i relate alot of the strategie[German for a long term plan for future sucess or development] in a COF,[course of fire] as a "player" would in a "game" of golf..........i think idpa and golf are very similar, when it comes to a "strategie"...but the only correlation i see between idpa and ipsc ,is the type of weapon used to play in the "game"..the "rules", in each game are different..and besides...i refuse to relate idpa rules to ipsc rules.why should i .but wait ..aren't we supposed to be using USPSA rules??..oh gosh...now i've got another set of rules to learn...... p.s. or as i like to put it p.i.s.s. i dont know why everyone likes to "hash it out" all the time over something that's going to stay the same.get use to it or learn to comprehend.

Edited September 7, 2006 by GmanCdp

[f250sd]

I voted to burn it, Then they could start over from the ground up, and maybe do it right this time.

[Jim Watson]

The rule book was revised last year, with comments solicited from the membership (and largely ignored.) It was like pulling teeth and I do not think it will happen again.

If you cannot separate the sport of complaining about the rules on the internet and the sport of actually shooting by the rules, best find another game. 'Cause they are not going to change the rules to suit any of us.

[markd]

GMAN,

Oh, Oh, OH...... Did you mean to use the word "game" in the same sentence with IDPA????? Man, that will get you jeered at, scorned, labled as a "gamer", and covered up with procedural errors if not a FTDR in about any strict IDPA environment!!! Oh, NO... the strict IDPA doctrine is that we are "training" shooters to use cover and preparing for the "real world." Excessive and subjective rules dramatically reduce the FUN factor which is why most of us shoot to begin with. I do not enjoy all the arguing over the rules and argument associated with interpreting the rules. The truth is that nobody including IDPA headquarters really knows what the rules are as they stand. I run a match on my own range twice a month. I called IDPA headquarters four or five times on several points and could not get a straight answer. When I finally did get a ruling the regional IDPA coordinator told me the ruling was wrong and that I must have talked to the wrong person at headquarters. If the rules are that vague and difficult to interpret and enforce then it is high time that Bill or somebody addressed the issue. IDPA shooters are flocking in numbers to USPSA L10 and single stack and using their regular IDPA stuff in a different discipline mainly cause of the stupid rules in IDPA.

[ima45dv8]

GMAN,

Oh, Oh, OH...... Did you mean to use the word "game" in the same sentence with IDPA????? Man, that will get you jeered at, scorned, labled as a "gamer", and covered up with procedural errors if not a FTDR in about any strict IDPA environment!!! Oh, NO... the strict IDPA doctrine is that we are "training" shooters to use cover and preparing for the "real world." Excessive and subjective rules dramatically reduce the FUN factor which is why most of us shoot to begin with. I do not enjoy all the arguing over the rules and argument associated with interpreting the rules. The truth is that nobody including IDPA headquarters really knows what the rules are as they stand. I run a match on my own range twice a month. I called IDPA headquarters four or five times on several points and could not get a straight answer. When I finally did get a ruling the regional IDPA coordinator told me the ruling was wrong and that I must have talked to the wrong person at headquarters. If the rules are that vague and difficult to interpret and enforce then it is high time that Bill or somebody addressed the issue. IDPA shooters are flocking in numbers to USPSA L10 and single stack and using their regular IDPA stuff in a different discipline mainly cause of the stupid rules in IDPA.

Mark,

This has been an interesting thread so far. I'd hate to see one of the Mod's shut this one down due to the tone that's starting to creep in. I think most folks here have shared your level of frustration with this subject at some point, but phrases like, "...the stupid rules in IDPA" are not in keeping with the forums guidelines and might get this thread closed.

Food for thought....

[GmanCdp]

People can affect change! The existence of the USA and the whole Boston Tea Party thing are proof positive that when folks get tired of a real injustice, things change. A leg out from behind cover??? Where was the body. If the body is safe, the feet and leg procedural penalties are every bit as bad as the dreaded fault line in IPSC. Oh and by the way....if a shooter is breaking the cover rule and the SO has time to yell cover the shooter gets no penalty. However, if the shooter is fast or if the SO is slow then the shooter gets dinged!!! A fast top class shooter with a slow SO is screwed!!! I also hate the reloading while moving restriction. As long as you are behind cover why not let the shooter reload??? How about the knee on the ground rule?? Is that so lard butt shooters who cannot squat can still be competitive cause we are making everyone kneel. Long as you are effectively using cover what difference does it make if your dang knee is on the ground?? I do love the shooting sports and have played hard for three decades. I just hate to see something with as much potential as IDPA turn into such a nit picky rule fest that so many shooters feel threatened, or somehow fouled by the rules and the application of those rules. Sure I could keep my mouth shut and take my toys and go play USPSA but lying down and giving up is not the American way nor is it my way!

The rule book was revised last year, with comments solicited from the membership (and largely ignored.) It was like pulling teeth and I do not think it will happen again.

If you cannot separate the sport of complaining about the rules on the internet and the sport of actually shooting by the rules, best find another game. 'Cause they are not going to change the rules to suit any of us.

+1 Jim........sorry mark that you feel this way 4th of July was 2 months ago ....good luck in your venture of setting the rest of us shooters straight....on how the game is supposed to played.. .. this forum is a good way for shooters to learn ...and that is what it is all about.or..you could go to myspace.com and start your own subject about the down falls of idpa... edited by G'man removed the disrespectful comment made.. sometimes the fingers type faster then the brain...G'

Edited September 7, 2006 by GmanCdp