What Do You Think Of The Idpa Rules?

[Mayonaise]

Since there seems to be a lot of disagreement about what IDPA IS or should be. This is a question that has been on my mind for the last year or so.

[Jim Watson]

Uh, None Of The Above?

I think the rule book should be revised for clarity and followed at any event calling itself an IDPA match.

Of the poll choices, I must agree that No 1 is tough because of inconsistencies in the present rulebook.

But all the others mean you are not shooting IDPA and should not say you are. If you want to shoot Something Else, say so; not "IDPA Style" or some such.

I don't want to shoot Something Else and find myself under different rules by driving a few miles. Get used to whatever differences make it Something Else and you are likely to find yourself accumulating PEs if you shoot real IDPA or Something Altogether Different which caters to another set of prejudices.

If you don't go to State and National matches, that might not matter to you but it does to me. There is always IPSC if you just can't stand IDPA rules. That ought to be enough without diluting and dividing the pool of shooters any more.

[Malak]

I think the rules need some revision, but if you don't like the rules and don't follow the rules, then don't shoot IDPA, or at least don't call it IDPA when you shoot.

If you don't like the rules of Monopoly, play Scrabble.

[tightloop]

You don't need a poll...here it is..

IDPA would be fine if the rules were very specific, very clear, and were enforced consistently...as it is, they are NOT, they are NOT and they are NOT...and if it isn't in the rule book, it should be allowed till it is...

[freeidaho]

Since there seems to be a lot of disagreement about what IDPA IS or should be. This is a question that has been on my mind for the last year or so.

Mark,

Initially I thought this was a troll's question, stirring the pot as it were. Since I know you not to be a troll, here goes. I think there are a lot of clubs making a good faith effort to follow the IDPA rules. I wish that were your number one bucket, instead of the extremely hard wording you have. Our club is making a good faith effort to follow all the IDPA rules at club matches. We have our CsOF reviewed by our AC for sanctioned matches, so maybe we are doing even better there.

On the other point, if some of you or your club is shooting IDPA like matches because you don't like the organization or the rulebook, but haven't written your own rulebook, then you are basically stealing from IDPA. I guess some can justify this lack of integrity, with their anger toward IDPA. Still seems intellectuallly dishonest to me.

Ken Reed

Edited September 1, 2006 by freeidaho

[Mayonaise]

Ken,

I did make the first option too rigid of an answer. Your wording is better.

The post was not meant to be a troll. It is a problem that I've seen over the last few years where I show up at a match and there are stages that clearly do not meet the guidelines of IDPA much less the spirit.

Tightloop I keep reading that rules aren't clear on the internet but the reality on the ground is, to me, that there are very few instances when a question comes up that the rule book isn't clear enough to settle an issue. Obviously there are some people who, no matter matter that if the call is clearly correct and against them, will argue the call then immediately post it on the internet to be argued again ad nauseum by people who weren't involved.

Mark

[freeidaho]

It is a problem that I've seen over the last few years where I show up at a match and there are stages that clearly do not meet the guidelines of IDPA much less the spirit.

Mark, et. al;

I don't get to travel much to other IDPA matches, except for a couple sanctioned matches. At our club we sometimes have someone come up with a stage that "is fun to shoot" that doesn't meet IDPA rules. That is because the designer doesn''t really know what the rules are. They learned about IDPA rules by shooting IDPA because the SO and MD know the rules, not by studying the rulebook. There are two people in our club that really know the rules, the rest get by. So I can understand where the issue comes from. I usually take the designer aside and thank them for their hard work and suggest improvements. It usually works great, but at my own club. At another club, I just have fun and shoot, which is why I got into this sport in the first place.

I shoot USPSA that way a few times a year. I have never read a single rule there, but get by because the staff and RO know the rules. I just have fun and shoot. Life is too short to stress over shooting games.

Ken Reed

[Bones]

The game is defined by the BOD at HQ. Members decide to accept that definition every time they send money.

The rules are clear. Consistent application is a local club matter. That would be the case no matter what the rules were.

This game is produced and officiated by volunteers at the local club level. They work for free. In some cases you get more than you pay for. In many cases you do not. Frankly if some one wants to take the time to design and set up a safe stage for me - I'll shoot it. If the match was not up to my standards I won't return.

It's a game. We run around a bermed pit or cinder block room and shoot holes in unarmed monochromatic cardboard torsos stapled to sticks. You can make the experienece anything you wish.

Less government is better government.

Leave the rules alone.

Craig

[vincent]

I think the the IDPA competition and safety rules should be followed closely at all matches. The only exception I see is that that equipment rules could be followed more loosely at club matches to allow more shooters to participate with the equipment they already have. Also the IDPA rules exclude commonly used carry gear which I think people should be allowed to compete with at the club level. For example if a shooters magazine pouch didn't cover enough of the magazine or some other minor difference that doesn't provide an advantage. If these shooters then find that they like the sport and want to compete at major matches they will need to make sure everything is close enough to the current rule interpretations to pass muster.

Edited to add:

I also think that clubs should be open to allowing shooters to compete for "no score" with whatever equipment they want. Let people try out thier new laser grips or other new toy to see how it works. I don't see the harm in it at the club level. Many people don't have access to "scenario style shooting" any other way.

Edited September 1, 2006 by vincent

[JFD]

My problem was I read the rule book before shooting any IDPA. Big mistake. The BS in there about IPSC left me with a bad taste for IDPA right off the bat. At least that's finally changed.

In the past what I've seen are the rules used as a general guideline, but the MD/SOs really got into their own vision of the "spirit" of the game. Hence my "general guideline" vote.

Any questions concerning the written rules versus what they are doing at a certain match did not lead to anything at all positive.

I'd bet cash money this has changed for the better by now, but too many of those same folks are still around for me to feel much of an urge to try it again, although I still want to check before this year is over to hopefully find that I'm wrong.

As far as the rules go, they seem to be best suited for the "just here to have fun" folks more than serious competitors. The same kind of rules discussions we have regularly at USPSA matches concerning some perceived infraction of the rules never gets beyond a simple discussion with possibly some minor irritation if a stage designer has to make a change. Try the same thing at an IDPA match and probably more than 1 person will end up freaking out that you'd dare question them.

That's what I've seen locally anyway, and for sure from the perspective of a USPSA shooter. I wouldn't expect all IDPA matches to be the same way.

I'd never shoot another "IDPA-Like" match again. I must admit that it was sort of interesting hearing someone explain why we had to retain ALL empty mags during the match, regardless of if we were reloading from slide-lock or not (so "evidence" wouldn't be stolen), that turned out to only be the start of the general stupidity we were to see that day. Of course that has nothing to do with an actual IDPA match, but the mention of outlaw IDPA matches meant I finally got to tell that story

[PJONES5]

I think the the IDPA competition and safety rules should be followed closely at all matches. The only exception I see is that that equipment rules could be followed more loosely at club matches to allow more shooters to participate with the equipment they already have. Also the IDPA rules exclude commonly used carry gear which I think people should be allowed to compete with at the club level. For example if a shooters magazine pouch didn't cover enough of the magazine or some other minor difference that doesn't provide an advantage. If these shooters then find that they like the sport and want to compete at major matches they will need to make sure everything is close enough to the current rule interpretations to pass muster.

Edited to add:

I also think that clubs should be open to allowing shooters to compete for "no score" with whatever equipment they want. Let people try out thier new laser grips or other new toy to see how it works. I don't see the harm in it at the club level. Many people don't have access to "scenario style shooting" any other way.

Very well stated Vicent.

At our club I never turn away a shooter,as long as we can make them shoot safe they may shoot what they bring.

If they are unsafe we will teach them the right way,when they make a mistake I try to correct it and advise that this will only fly at a club level match.

As to the rules,all our Experenced IDPA shooters want to shoot by the rules,and I find them easy to understand .

Our matches follow the sprit of IDPA and we almost never have a problem.

No rules made up for any game are perfect .

We average 35 shooters or so per month with 4 or 5 new shooter every month.

At our club we want the shooter to be SAFE and have a good time.

Haveing fun is what this game is about,and never forget the fact that it is a game.

Keep it simple,when shooting IDPA use IDPA rules.

pat

[Mayonaise]

I also think that clubs should be open to allowing shooters to compete for "no score" with whatever equipment they want. Let people try out thier new laser grips or other new toy to see how it works. I don't see the harm in it at the club level. Many people don't have access to "scenario style shooting" any other way.

Again, I made the first answer option too rigid.

I have as an MD given a lot of leeway in allowing people to participate. I had a guy with a compensated Bersa .380 shoot for better part of a year even. I have no problem allowing safe equipment. Lasers for no score? No problem at the club matches. But I ran an IDPA match by the competition rules and course of fire guidelines.

To me it's more a matter of the COF design than anything else. If they are unrealistic or silly it's annoying and pointless to me. Stick to the guidelines and I don't have much problem. Making me start a scenario stage with a holstered, unloaded gun with a downloaded magazine is just retarded.

[kdmoore]

Here's my take on things.

I disagree that the rules are all enforcable. We just got finished with a huge thread on "round dumping". I defy anyone to say they could, as an SO, make the correct call on that 100 percent of the time. ETA, Not trying to drift this, mentioned only as an example.

IMO, the rules incorporate the spirit/intent of the BOD, but they haven't necessarily been able to define everything completely. It would be nice for them to be able to say, shoot this match with gear that you carry with. If you don't carry, mimic the closest friend that does. That's what they want. turning that into specific rules has been tough. Trying has made those who shoot primarily for score NOT use carry gear. I should offer $1K reward for the first person to document the use of tactical vests and OWB kydex holsters used for "real". But that's the gear used by most winners..

I think local clubs should have flexibility with the rules. Here's my experience. I'd shot paper and VERY little steel for my first 40-50 matches. Then one match they set up a steel stage. Plate rack with several poppers. In fact, there were mirror stages that allowed two shooters between resets. After the match, they had man on man competition. Turns out the last poppers were set to fall at the same spot (clever) and the first popper to that spot won. Why bring this up? Pretty blatant ignoring of the rules, but it was FUN. Still remember it years later. Doubt many shooters new it was an illegal stage. But it was fun shooting. Fun shooting can grow the sport.

I agree with laxing the equipment guidelines. Let people experiment with gear (mounted lights?, lasers, etc) and use gear they actually own.. If it's percieved by enough to add an advantage, then shoot for no score. We've let people shoot that way with lasers, USPSA rigs, .22's ... and likely a few other things I've forgotten. What's the harm? I do think we owe it to the guy who shows up with an unaltered uncle mikes holster to let him know that mods/replacement would be needed to follow the rules fully so that he's not surprised somewhere else.

At large matches, the rules should be enforced as stringently as possible.

For those of you throwing board game rules around ... Here's one for you. Many play monopoly. And many put penalty money in the center of board, and if you land on free parking, you get the money. Not in the rules. Official tourney's (do they have these), would not allow it. But if everyone agrees to do it, I don't think you should be forced to rename the game ....

Edited September 1, 2006 by kdmoore

[freeidaho]

For those of you throwing board game rules around ... Here's one for you. Many play monopoly. And many put penalty money in the center of board, and if you land on free parking, you get the money. Not in the rules. Official tourney's (do they have these), would not allow it. But if everyone agrees to do it, I don't think you should be forced to rename the game ....

KD,

I can see a difference between buying a Monopoly game and changing the rules for private games, vs publicly using almost all of IDPA, charging shooters to shoot, just not paying IDPA HQ.

Most outlaw clubs are making money on there outlaw IDPA games, yet not paying IDPA HQ. Big difference from your example. In fact it may actually be illegal. Dunno I haven't stayed at Holiday Inn for a while.

YMMV,

Ken Reed

Edited September 1, 2006 by freeidaho

[Mayonaise]

I should offer $1K reward for the first person to document the use of tactical vests and OWB kydex holsters used for "real". But that's the gear used by most winners..

I know guys working DOD and DOS jobs that shoot IDPA and wear what kydex OWB and 5.11 vests on the job. If you ever shoot some big matches in the Southeast you'll see them.

I'll get a pic of my PD bud who was wearing a bladetech and 5.11 vest today and shoots IDPA occassionally with us. That should be worth a grand.

Edited September 1, 2006 by Mayonaise

[SRT Driver]

IDPA is fun but some of the "rules" are rediculous.

1. Putting an empty mag in your pocket!!!??? ..if it has round(s) left in it, fine. Leave

the fragile, gold plated mags at home.

2. Stop the holster and gear race. If you can cover it up with a vest/shirt and it doesn't

stick out 4 ft..let it be. Don't ask me to "look for light."

3. Concealment vests ..do you really wear one out in public? Use a shirt..with sleeves.

4. SO's and the FTF (failure to fail) penalty. So's that spend more time trying to tack

on penalties.."he must have done something wrong to shoot that fast/well."

5. If every visible target is netralized, why do I have to reload behind cover? Why stop?

Get away!! is sound tactical advise in my mind.

FWIW, I have seen/heard about more "gaming" in the IDPA circles than I've seen shooting USPSA, including weighted concealment garments with what I call "skid plates" to reduce snagging. People get away with it 'cause no one looks.

[tightloop]

I would abide with every rule in the book...but if they cannot show me the rule...tough beans...that is the problem I have with their rules...I am hopeful that it has changed for the better since I stopped shooting it, but I still read the arguments about the same things from shooters who participate now...

[Genghis]

I just went thru IDPA SO school, so this is a timely question for me.

This is a very good topic, because it encompasses two questions:

1) Are the IDPA rules good?

2) Is there any harm in deviating from the rules?

There are a number of flaws in the IDPA rules. To pick a few:

1) Not being able to reload while moving to cover is not very "tactical."

2) The tactical priority/tactical sequence rules can get really confusing.

3) The equipment rules are arbitrary and unnecessarily complicated.

SO's and MD's at local matches have in my experience bent over backwards to keep things fair and fun. This includes answering many of my stupid questions about what can and can't be done, and relaxing rules at times. I think this is a good thing.

The best solution would be to fix the rules then adhere to them. If that isn't going to happen, then ignoring the worst rules is an acceptable solution.

[Steve J]

If you're shooting that game follow the rules as written. When they get changed follow those.

If you're putting on a match (like I do) try to make sure your Safety Officers and score keepers know the rules and apply them fairly.

[Bob Hostetter]

The rules are, without a doubt, in need of a lot of work. The training that the SO's recieve is in need of a lot of work. While most of the SO's I have met during a match were very good, at almost every large IDPA match I have shot there is at least one who needs to find a new hobby.

Having said that, if you are going to have a sanctioned IDPA match, you need to follow the rules as written or it isn't an IDPA match..............

[Merlin Orr]

I think the rules need some revision, but if you don't like the rules and don't follow the rules, then don't shoot IDPA, or at least don't call it IDPA when you shoot.

If you don't like the rules of Monopoly, play Scrabble.

This about covers it...

The rules are, without a doubt, in need of a lot of work. The training that the SO's recieve is in need of a lot of work. While most of the SO's I have met during a match were very good, at almost every large IDPA match I have shot there is at least one who needs to find a new hobby.

Having said that, if you are going to have a sanctioned IDPA match, you need to follow the rules as written or it isn't an IDPA match..............

This also jives withy my limited experence with IDPA matches.

With this said. I have been to the last 3 or 4 matches here with the local IDPA club in Corpus Christi and playing with these guys have reinforced my opinion that most of the knocks and bad cess directed at IDPA are really not accurate...

I will continue to play.

Edited to add. The club I have been shooting with allows any kind of guns and has a "Non IDPA Gun" division. Shoot that 6" or whatever you like.....

Edited September 1, 2006 by Merlin Orr

[revchuck]

I checked the "only at sanctioned matches" box. Local IDPA matches often have people showing up for their first match ever. Other shooters at local matches have no plans to shoot a sanctioned match. As long as these two groups are safe, I let them shoot and teach as we go along.

Those of us who are serious about it usually play by the rules, to include reminding an SO to ding us for a rules violation they might have missed.

The rules are nowhere near perfect, but they give us a fairly objective standard to measure our performance against each other.

[kdmoore]

For those of you throwing board game rules around ... Here's one for you. Many play monopoly. And many put penalty money in the center of board, and if you land on free parking, you get the money. Not in the rules. Official tourney's (do they have these), would not allow it. But if everyone agrees to do it, I don't think you should be forced to rename the game ....

KD,

I can see a difference between buying a Monopoly game and changing the rules for private games, vs publicly using almost all of IDPA, charging shooters to shoot, just not paying IDPA HQ.

Most outlaw clubs are making money on there outlaw IDPA games, yet not paying IDPA HQ. Big difference from your example. In fact it may actually be illegal. Dunno I haven't stayed at Holiday Inn for a while.

YMMV,

Ken Reed

Agreed, no analogy is perfect, but the point I was trying to make is that if a small isolated group (like your family or friends) decides to alter the rules a bit, or not use some (sometimes we play monopoly without ones, sometimes we pay without a mortgage penalty) it's OK. Likely done to make the game a bit more interesting. I think of my local shooting cliche as "family" anyways If the local clubs allow a steel stage, don't check holters, don't chrono, allow firearms that aren't acceptable S/E/SP, CDP, S/E/SR it's ok by me.

I don't think this thread is meant to cover "outlaw" clubs, so I won't go there.

Mayo and others, I was trying to slim my verbose thread down, but meant civilian carry, which is typically more "discreet". Even there, I'd be willing to pay a $1K for every IDPA like get up that is used daily by those who CCW if someone will pay me $1 for everyone who carries IWB. Point is only meant that it's not your typical carry gear.

As for rules that initially seem silly, (empty mag retention and the rest) they are usually there to prevent other behaviour that is worse. I agree with 99% of the rules as far as what I see their intent to be. i.e. I agree with the intent of the daylight rule (tho I would do it differently). The other 1% I may just not understand what the intent is. I.E the limitation of steel. And some rules (back to round dumping) are impossible to enforce 100%.

OK, let me just put my position down as .... I agree with the rules. And it is ok to ignore them at a local level.

[Mayonaise]

IDPA is fun but some of the "rules" are rediculous.

I agree if you haven't spent much time actually carrying a gun or put much thought into defensive shooting.

1. Putting an empty mag in your pocket!!!??? ..if it has round(s) left in it, fine. Leave

the fragile, gold plated mags at home.

Speed reloads are penalties for counting rounds. On the street they just don't happen. It's a simple concept and has been explained a zillion times. If you don't "get it" maybe IDPA isn't your game.

2. Stop the holster and gear race. If you can cover it up with a vest/shirt and it doesn't

stick out 4 ft..let it be. Don't ask me to "look for light."

Uh, the new rules do stop the gear race. Lines had to be drawn because people were pushing past what is practical and concealable. Have a better criteria? Let's hear it.

3. Concealment vests ..do you really wear one out in public? Use a shirt..with sleeves.

Read the book. There is no rule requiring the use of a vest. People do wear vests, I wear one all the time. Even a photo vest now and then. Guess you never went to a match that looked like a Luau. Photo vests just happen to be the current fashion. Kind of like STI shirts at USPSA matches.

4. SO's and the FTF (failure to fail) penalty. So's that spend more time trying to tack

on penalties.."he must have done something wrong to shoot that fast/well."

SO's are taught to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. It's in the book. We don't have overlays blah blah blah. Guess you didn't read that part of the book.

5. If every visible target is netralized, why do I have to reload behind cover? Why stop?

Get away!! is sound tactical advise in my mind.

To a good extent I can't argue with your point. Since logical times to reload vary from scenario to scenario HQ evidently felt forced to draw a line. We may not agree with it but it's the rule.

FWIW, I have seen/heard about more "gaming" in the IDPA circles than I've seen shooting USPSA, including weighted concealment garments with what I call "skid plates" to reduce snagging. People get away with it 'cause no one looks.

Well, USPSA is a sport that REQUIRES gaming each stage. If you don't rehearse a stage a few times at an USPSA match the rest of the shooters will look at you like you have 10 heads. I guess you also don't carry a gun day to day. Most people who have put much thought into their carry attire weight their strong side concealment garment to help in clearing the gun on the draw. My wife sews drapery weights into my concealment shirts and I always carry my keys in the strong side pocket of a vest. as well as often iron in material to stiffen the garment which also helps reduce printing.

Mark

[AlamoShooter]

I got an FDR just for driving up to an IDPA shoot.