markd

EBG and Joe, Thanks for the input. EBG, I would definitely shy away from the 200XTP at Rowland velocity. My lunch money for a month says it will blow up almost every time. Hard cast bullets are an option for sure but I really "WANT" a hollow point, expanding projectile. I have shot dozens of deer with hard cast bullets and they do kill but they punch little neat holes almost like FMJ and lead to long tracking jobs with sparse blood trails. JHPs that will stay together and exit kill much faster and leave a much better and shorter blood trail. Joe, concerning weight and bullet length. I am not shying away from the heavier bullet; it is just that nobody makes a heavier (230gr.) bullet that will stay together and the heavier 250 Barnes and the 260 Nosler bullets are way too long to work in the Rowland. They either will not go in the magazine or they will be crimped above the crimp goove and will set back under recoil and will literally blow the gun completely up. I know of four guns being blown completely apart. Increasing the seating depth in the Rowland by as little as .075 will shoot pressure up from 38,000psi to way over 50,000psi! Not wise if you value your hands and eyes. I suppose I will work with the 185 for now and see if it will stay together and actually have enough weight to reliably exit.

AZ, OK, results and experiences differ for all of us. Any XTP will often, more often than not expand and stay together and work fine. However, they will also very often blow completely apart and separate and fail to exit. In .44mag, .45 colt, .45 ACP, and .460 Rowland I have all combined killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 white tail deer and a dozen hogs. Here is my experience. In .44 mag, nothing under 300 grains stayed together reliably. In .45 colt at high velocity 1,200fps+ absolutely nothing but the .300gr. Nosler partition will 100% stay together if you hit big shoulder bone or hind quarter. In .45 colt the 300XTP works well but does sometimes come apart. The .300XTP "MAG" bullet in .45 colt does a fine job and never comes apart but does not expand and hold its shape and weight like the nosler partition. I shot a small doe broaside last year with a 230XTP in the Rowland and hit her perfect right behind the shoulder at about 50 yards. Sure she died in under 100 yards but the blood trail was kinda sparse cause there was NO EXIT wound. The bullet came all to pieces. That sucks. I also killed a big hog one time and did some bullet testing with .454 Casull. Stood on the tailgate and shot straight down three feet into the hog lying on the ground. Put one 300XTP, one 300XTP mag, and one 300gr. Nosler partition into the shouder and repeated the test on the hind quarter. Results: Only the 300XTP mag and the Nosler Partition exited and both of them exited and went ten inches into the ground. The regular XTP blew up and did not even come out of the hog much less go into the ground. Bottom line: I want a bullet to expand and exit and i have yet to find one that will reliably do both in .451 diameter. My next attempt will be with the Barnes 185 solid copper hollow points. I would rather have more weight but given a choice will simply opt for one that will stay together and actually come out the other side of the critter.

Thanks but Barnes only makes a 185 gr. that will work and it is too light for my taste. THe bigger 250 they make is way too long. I need a 230gr. that will stay together.

Does anybody make a .451 JHP that will NOT blow completely apart at .460 Rowland velocity? One note: the bullet has got to be the same length as say a Hornady 230XTP. The longer Nosler Partition 260 is too long. The Hornady XTP blows completely apart on deer most of the time. Ball ammo is not practical for shooting game. Some of the true bonded bullets might work but I have no experience with them. Anybody here with a suggestion? Thanks in advance. By the way, the velocity I am working with is a 230jhp at just over 1,300fps and the intended target is white tail deer and hogs here in the south.

Thanks for the info. I will look into the Speer 260 idea with AA#7. NOTE: I have just learned that most 260 gr. bullets are too long for safe use in the Rowland and the crimp ring is in the wrong place. Crimping above the ring is possible but the bulets get set back in the case during recoil and by the time number four or five comes up and into the chamber, there is likely to be a dissaster. A VERY reputable gun and products company has had four guns blow up (literally) with heavy bullets(260gr) in the Rowland when the bullets were crimped above the crimp ring where they have to be crimped to get the correct COL. Be careful.

I need some load data for the .460 Roland using the Nosler 260grain partition bullet. I am using Hogdon Longshot powder successfully with the 230 grain bullet but I really need to use the 260grain partition for a hunting application but can find no data. Thanks in advance.

For Bones, GMAN, and anybody else, I just figured it out. I AM the "agressive shooter" this thread is about. For what it is worth I don't need any directions to IPSC; I started that around 1987 and am perfectly capable of finding it now. Secondly, I did not "just think I would try IDPA". I took up IDPA in the late 90s and won the Mississippi State IDPA match in 98/99 using a stock Gold Cup in .45 acp so I resent the implication that I just popped up at a match one day and "thought I would give IDPA a try." I also have the match on video tape that I am being ridiculed here for and will be happy to provide a copy if need be to anyone who would like to see if the problem was really an "agressive shooter" or perhaps one of the infamous range Nazi SOs with a chip on his shoulder against both IPSC shooters and really good shooters! I am trying to resolve this respectfully by PM with the originator but I am pretty weary of the lack of respect being showed. It is pretty easy to sit behind a computer and laugh and make fun of a shooter without knowing the facts or the real track record.

Pardon my ignorance but I have been away from IPSC for over ten years. What is He-Man class? Is it an official division of USPSA or a division of some other shooting discipline or a subdivision of USPSA single stack or what? I'm interested!!!

OK Men, If I am toeing the line of acceptable language for here then I will respectfully back away. I want to shoot IDPA; is that not evident? So do many others, but when OBVIOUS problematic rules diminish the enjoyment of the act then something is obviously wrong that should be addressed. I think I can see that you all are saying that past action dictates that there will be no change and that the powers that be in IDPA really do not seem to care what the shooters think. If that is the case so be it and I will indeed play somewhere else. It is also very obvious that I am not alone in my frustrations with IDPA. My intent is not to tell anyone "how" to shoot or enjoy a sport or spend their free time. I do hate to see what I perceive to be a good thing going down hill because of apathy on the part of either its membership or its administration. Perhaps neither are willing to change.

GMAN, Oh, Oh, OH...... Did you mean to use the word "game" in the same sentence with IDPA????? Man, that will get you jeered at, scorned, labled as a "gamer", and covered up with procedural errors if not a FTDR in about any strict IDPA environment!!! Oh, NO... the strict IDPA doctrine is that we are "training" shooters to use cover and preparing for the "real world." Excessive and subjective rules dramatically reduce the FUN factor which is why most of us shoot to begin with. I do not enjoy all the arguing over the rules and argument associated with interpreting the rules. The truth is that nobody including IDPA headquarters really knows what the rules are as they stand. I run a match on my own range twice a month. I called IDPA headquarters four or five times on several points and could not get a straight answer. When I finally did get a ruling the regional IDPA coordinator told me the ruling was wrong and that I must have talked to the wrong person at headquarters. If the rules are that vague and difficult to interpret and enforce then it is high time that Bill or somebody addressed the issue. IDPA shooters are flocking in numbers to USPSA L10 and single stack and using their regular IDPA stuff in a different discipline mainly cause of the stupid rules in IDPA.

People can affect change! The existence of the USA and the whole Boston Tea Party thing are proof positive that when folks get tired of a real injustice, things change. A leg out from behind cover??? Where was the body. If the body is safe, the feet and leg procedural penalties are every bit as bad as the dreaded fault line in IPSC. Oh and by the way....if a shooter is breaking the cover rule and the SO has time to yell cover the shooter gets no penalty. However, if the shooter is fast or if the SO is slow then the shooter gets dinged!!! A fast top class shooter with a slow SO is screwed!!! I also hate the reloading while moving restriction. As long as you are behind cover why not let the shooter reload??? How about the knee on the ground rule?? Is that so lard butt shooters who cannot squat can still be competitive cause we are making everyone kneel. Long as you are effectively using cover what difference does it make if your dang knee is on the ground?? I do love the shooting sports and have played hard for three decades. I just hate to see something with as much potential as IDPA turn into such a nit picky rule fest that so many shooters feel threatened, or somehow fouled by the rules and the application of those rules. Sure I could keep my mouth shut and take my toys and go play USPSA but lying down and giving up is not the American way nor is it my way!

My vote was to burn the book with no hesitation. Most of the IDPA rules are so subjective that they attract jerk SOs like flies to you know what. The cover rules are ambiguous and a bad call waiting to happen. The magazine retention rules are rediculous from a fun or tactical perspective. IDPA matches have become "rules" contests instead of shooting contests. I love the IDPA concept but the rules and the application of the rules has totally ruined IDPA for me and I will likley never shoot another IDPA match because of the rules and because of how hard IDPA tries to bash and be different from IPSC. In a recent survey published in the IDPA journal almost half of IDPA shooters also shot IPSC. This poll shows the majority voting as I did in extreme discontent with the current IDPA rules. Is anybody listening??????

DWT, Wow, 40 to 50 points is not trivial! It sounds like you may actually be dropping more shots out of the A zone on top of receiving the lower minor score for your Bs and Cs. DO you think minor is causing you to shoot faster and shoot worse or is the points down mainly a result of minor scoring?

Ok, I did get an answer and got my problem resolved. It seems that they have indeed moved from Manchacha(sp?) to Spicewood Texas which explains my phone and mail failure. The lady was very nice and assured me they would replace the broken mag. It would have been nice if they would have done like Dillon and just taken my word for it and sent me another one so I would not have to pay shipping again but business is business I suppose and I will be satisfied just to get the replacement. Thanks again for the number.

Thanks for the number. I will call it in a few minutes. I have not tried in about a week or so. I certainly did not mean to start an ugly rumor. I just had trouble getting an answer on top of getting a package returned which was addressed correctly. Thanks again.