Limited Rifles

[Steve Moneypenny]

i agree with kellyn here, i would like an optic on a limited rifle for the reason that i am lazy and don't want to learn with rifle sights..... but without one it will push me to learn more.

so my vote is no on the optics.

[a-44978]

If i were a Delta operator,hummm. No, but if i were a ipsc 3-gun limited shooter no doubt iron sights only.

THANK YOU DELTA AND EVERYONE ELSE that gets shot at for me!Patiotism aside

Why not a seperate entity alltogether?Hummmmm,Tactical 3-gun something hey why not?(Kyle)

Yes i want to be a better rifle shooter but if i could choose i want a dot or acog ,etc.

How many shooters have you seen that shoot open because they won't remove their acog or holosite and i don't mean open shooters that have open gear (2 optics ,speed loaders,etc)

Last week my squad was all open except me. 7 of us, and all we could talk about was Kyles match in NC.

See "Why not have weapon transition stages"

The next time i see these guys i'm gonna run this by them and see what kinda response i get

I'm just a "B" Limited (beginner in my case) but i can see a patern here and please hit me with a brow beating frenzy if i'm wrong but........I see this,or think i do.

Ipsc tends to be taylored more to the masses and three gun is a different venue.

The tactical 3-gun match has quite a large following.Common sense and simple rules.Common sense and safety being first.

Optics on rifles only because yes it is still practical and common.

Optics on shotguns no and pistols,well maybe large game at long range.

This is also the same crowd that likes retreating stages and does'nt mind crawling through the dirt.

Not wanna be commandos but competitors that like this style of venue.

For IPSC maybe not.Arguements can be made about the experience level of both shooter and ro alike.

Not to mention stage design.

Why not? Theres IDPA,IPSC,Bianci(is it still around?)Steel.

Hummmmm. could happen

[John Dunn]

The most popular class at the recent MGM 3 gun match was the scoped tactical category which allowed one of the three guns to have optics. Everyone I saw was using optics on the rifle. Put me in the scoped limited division. I would bet that this would be by far the most popular division.

All iron sight purists should remain in the old limited division, and shoot matchlocks.

[Nate]

I am with Eric. Steel past 100. It makes scoring simple and have you ever tryed to sort out a brown target from a brown dirt background at 200 yards with iron sights. Maybe it's just me but I find where the sticks end and shoot there. Not a great plan. usPsa wise, I would not take a shot were I could not sort the target out from the back ground.

[paraman1]

Due to recent events unfolding in Iraq I can say with all honesty that optics are crowding out iron sights slowly but surely . Every night on the evening news I would see some young Marine packing around some robocop looking M-4 with of all things a Trijicon or some other non-magnifying optical sight setup on it . The military is also beginning to use an SPR (Special Purpose Rifle) which is basically a 20 inch M-16 flat top with a 3x9 scope so that they can have medium range sniping abilities which in a close range battle (like house to house , block to block) makes a heck of a lot of sense to me . All of my rifles have scopes on them , mainly because they are used for varmint hunting , and I do a lot of shooting beyond 300 yds. with my AR on extremely small targets (gophers) and I must say that you need to have a fairly decent grasp on rifle marksmanship to hit a 1.5x4 inch target at 300 plus yards . When I shoot 3-gun Iwill either shoot scoped tactical or open but I never have any illusions of being competitive in open with a singlestack .45 and a limited shotgun .

[Mistral404]

I am in favor of optics for rifles only, iron sights for shotguns and pistols. My reasoning is farily straight forward;

I am one of those over 50 shooters. I am lucky to see a target at 200 yds. I would like to shoot 3gun but with iron sights, I know I am physically unable to participate much less be competitive with other novice shooters.

I do not want to put optics on my shotgun and pistol.

So my choice is to be absolutely demoralized shooting iron sights on a rifle, taking three times as long to get half the hits of others or just not shoot 3gun.

Three classes in 3Gun could mean more participation. More participation is a good thing. I acknowledge there are those who want the status quo but there really is a demand out there for a 'tatical class'; by adopting the class we would be meeting the needs of our shooters.

Isn't that the idea. Getting people involve, making it enjoyable and accessible to a wider group of people?

[xsrdx]

I'd be willing to entertain the idea of optics in Limited when the Army or better yet, the Marine Corps, adopts a rifle that has issue optics

Well, certainly the Army M24 and USMC M40 Sniper Weapons Systems are thus equipped .... The Army has issued several thousand M4 systems, to special operations, airborne, air assault and light infantry units. While the standard carrying handle sights are available, the vast majority of these carbines are equipped with either the ISSUE Close Combat Optic, AKA the Aimpoint Comp M/L, or the ACOG NSN, AKA the TA01 NSN. Both optics are government issue items and have seen widespread use in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The USMC is on the cusp of adopting the full length M16A4 MWS, a flat top M16A2 with the same multi use M1913 rails as the M4, to be fielded with a staggering array of night vision, visible light, IR laser target acquisition and aiming (PAQ4/PEQ2) and several options for magnified and 1x day optics.

You may not prefer it, but "Scoped Tactical" represents the way most police and military that use firearms for a living are equipped. Does that matter?

Perhaps not, but the present USPSA divisions don't interest a large number of capable 3 gunners largely because of the insistence on either WWII era target acquisition and aiming, or having to run some open foo foo rifle setup with pink handguards and a hydraulic bipod, a mag-lev pistol holster with two retention straps and a rain cover, and a 7ft battery powered shotgun if you just want to shoot a scoped rifle.

[Ironman]

I could go either way. I really like my EO Tech (non-magnified) optics on the AR but I would go iron before I would compete in Open Class. I used iron sites for several years, and got pretty good with them, before I looked into getting the EO Tech. The EO Tech made shooting the AR more fun for me (maybe just something new and different). I think that all shooters need to start with the basics. As far as separate divisions go I think there are enough now, but special awards would be OK.

Jim

[rhino]

I realize most working rifles will have some kind of dot or scope, but . . .

Since we're talking about a game . . . what about the people who choose to shoot with iron sights, not because they have to do so, but because they want to do so? If we allow scopes in regular limited, we're screwing those guys.

The addition of a "tactical" division or "one scope" among three guns division seems like an excellent solution that creates the least amount of additional problems.

[kurtm]

Visual accuity is really the thing we are talking about here. Yes the National Match guys still use iron on out to 600yds, but they are shooting at a BIG black target on an even BIGGER white back ground. In 3-gun we tend to shoot at things not that well defined. Although I do like the lime safety green that Dan Furby uses on steel, it can still wash out as a color under changing light conditions, light tan targets can disappear on a dirt background. Get a little dust in the air and even an IPSC target at 100 yards can become hard to see, and we haven't even begun to talk about weaker eye sight or astigmatism. With the pistol or shotgun the targets are not that far away that they can't be redily defined even with weak eyes, not so the rifle! I don't know how many utterly discusted people I have seen come off the line with an iron sighted AR that just spent an entire 30 round magazine to hit just 2 MGM flash targets at 300 yards mubbling "I just couldn't see it"!! Now most these people are just getting into the sport and they don't have open race guns, they are lucky to have a high cap Glock and a borrowed shotgun. In order for them to "enhance" their visual accuity, they must now shoot open....borrowed bird gun against 11 (USPSA politically correct) round race 1100s with speed tubes, porting and red dots. Stock Glock against 28 round 38 super race gun. Now instead of being frustrated with the inability to "see" with a rifle, because they can now use their scope...open remember, they are completely frustrated that they can't "keep up" with their stock equipment in TWO other firearm catagories. Two for one frustration equals non repeat shooter. I have never met anyone that was just starting into 3-gun that went out and bought all 3-guns for open competition! I have met plenty of people that had an open pistol (and they are already heavy into pistol, because if your not you wouldn't have an open gun), and decided to shoot open just because of their pistol, But I have met darn few who had a limited pistol and decided to buy an open rifle and open shotgun just to shoot a scope!! I feel that it is high time to recognise this and start a "scoped limited" class in USPSA and for the rest of the matches....well we will just keep on doing it like we do already! KURT

[lcambre]

I'll throw in a nother vote for adding a tactical class. Both my local club have it along with the two major matches I am attending (WC3G and RM3G) If they can all handle it then USPSA should be able to deal with it.

The equipment rules can be as simple as same as limited with the addition of a single optic allowed. Possibly an upper limit for power, but in most of the stages I've seen it doesn't help to get above a 4x power, so it probably isn't needed.

Louis

[kellyn]

Well if (a big IF) the function of Limited class is to reflect equipment that's being used in the real world, then optically sighted rifles are such equipment. You only need turn on the news to see optics in action. In fact, optically sighted rifles seem to outnumber iron sighted rifles unless you're in a Somali milita or the Taliban. Under this theory, optics should be allowed in limited or a seperate class created.

Of course, the function of Limited could be to shoot using Limited equipment. If that's the case then iron sighted rifles should be required for Limited. Shooting irons is harder therefore they're Limited There is little to no difference in performance between a "tactically scoped rifle" and an "open rifle" so either scoped rifles remain in open or a new class needs to be created.

I guess a new class should be created, simply based on the popularity of the scoped rifle with shooters who want to remain limited or tactical with the other two guns. OMIGOD, I agree with Kurt!

Of course, what is the rationale for not allowing optics on limited shotguns?

[xsrdx]

Of course, what is the rationale for not allowing optics on limited shotguns?

Does "lack of interest" count as a rationale?

I've never shot a smoothbore with optics, so I'm hardly qualified to comment, but I've never let that stop me before...

I don't think optics are that much help considering shotgun engagement ranges and ammo. With slugs, maybe, but a fiber/ghost ring setup is pretty fast and accurate anyway. With birdshot, especially shooting clays, precise shot placement is less of an issue. Limited shotgun has always been about reloading speed.

Take away the porting, speedloaders and the long mag tube, is an open gun with a HOLO that much faster on a typical sgn stage?

I don't know, but I think the difference would be substantially less than that between limited and scoped rifles on a 250yd rifle stage.

[steve223]

My vote is for another class.

Steve

[crazyaboutguns]

Keep Limited as an iron sight division. USPSA already has an excessive number of divisions, it does not

need more. For those wishing to shoot 3-Gun with scoped rifles/shotguns, Open division provides for that.

Those preferring the challenge of shooting without optical devices, Limited Division, should not be placed in a position of competing against optics.

[KyleL]

Some folks shoot IPSC for fun, some shoot it for training.

If adding a new class gets more shooters then great!

We will continue to shoot our Tactical match as it is.

With Mikey Voigt in charge I think they will make the right decision.

GBA

KyleL

[benny hill]

YES,YES,YES, to scopes in limited. I love to shoot limited shotgun & pistol But at my age I cannot see a damn thing with iron sight's on a rifle.

[PacMan]

Oh what the h@ll, I might as well jump in with the rest of you guys. Scope on the rifle is the only way to play for me. With the cross-eye dominancy (left eye/right hand) problem, the scope had actually helped me keeping both eye open when it comes to rifle shooting.

[Sam]

Real good thread! There are probably alot of people out there who would do better shooting an optical sighted rifle. I know I certainly do better with one. However, I still shoot predominately irons on my AR. Our local club matches do permit scopes on the rifle without bumping a guy to open. We only have one open pistol shooter in the club anyway, so what the heck. Most of the other guys like a scoped rifle too. I'm just a die-hard I guess. Hitting a far way target with irons is just more interesting to me. So, my opinion: As long as there is a limited class, I'd like to see all the guns in it shot John Wayne style, with irons.

But, my gut instinct tells me that I'm seriously in the minority. I think a new "tactical" or, whatever you want to call it class, that would allow optics on the rifle only would pull virtually everone out of the existing limited division. USPSA is pretty good about listening to its membership. If it ever comes about, I would rather just change the current rule for limited rifles to allow a fixed low-power scope or something else that would differentiate a limited rifle from an open rifle. Just for example: The rules could permit a non-magnifying dot or a compact fixed power scope not too exceed a certain size and magnification.

As long as I'm on this thread, wouldn't it be cool to have a handfull of rifle and shotgun classifiers? Hopefully nobody flames me for saying that, it might be a nightmare for HQ. But I think it would be cool. You should still have to claim your highest classification in any match, though.

[Loves2Shoot]

If they are going to putt usp poppers at 220 yards with hardcover in front and make you shoot it Virginia count (ie. Area 1 3-Gun) heck ya put scopes on the blasters. If you are going to keep the ditances/target sizes reasonable for average shooters, then scopes are necessary. I think that when 80% or so of the limited shooters score less than 35% on a stage something is amiss. Sure some guys can hit them, but only expert shooters can do that type of shooting. How many people would not chose optics on 200-300 yard shots if they "had" to hit the targets (ie "real world") I sure as heckk would pop a scope on.

[kurtm]

What we are talking about here is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CLASS for limited optics. Not forcing Iron to shoot against optics, or doing away with Iron limited. Limited will still be just as it is now!! IN ADDITION there would be ANOTHER class for limited optic. The topic was should we leave LIMITED alone OR should we split it into TWO DIFFERENT CLASSES. If the optic class did indead pull all the shooters out of limited, I can only say that it was high timed we had the change as this is what the customer ( the guys that pay to shoot a match ) wanted! KURT

[benny hill]

AMEN brother

[twix]

Split it. More people having more fun.

TommyB

[rhino]

Agreed!

[Sam]

  Should USPSA allow optical sights in limited rifle?

My post was in answer to kellyn's original question. I assumed the question was asking: should USPSA allow optical sights in limited rifle? Limited is a division, "D" is a class. (using capital letters and alot of exclaimation points when you disagee with someone is a lack of class) And I would prefer allowing optics in limited division over creating a new division for the legally blind. If you prefer something diffierent, that is ok with me. I'm going to keep shooting anyway they cut the deck, because that's what I like to do.