Back Touching Chair Starts

[Flexmoney]

These are starting to bug me a little.

Shooting Production, I have mags and pouches half-way around my back.

I think I am going to make some stools...no backs to them. Then, have the start position require at least one butt cheek on the stool...and all the legs of the stool must be on the ground.

[Gary Stevens]

This is an issue that bothers me also. I was glad to see that Area 8 had a solid back on the chair they used. That way the magazines shouldn't get caught up as bad.

Did you get hung up in the chair?

Gary

[D.Hayden]

And chairs should never have arms!

[Hey QuicksDraw!]

Chairs are also a bain to those of us who are, er, gravity challenged.

[Vlad]

I get the bitching, I have run into those problems myself. But guys .. remember that P in the sport name? Demending custom IPSC race chairs is only a step away from saying lets not have any starting positions other then standing with hands at sides. Well, maybe two steps.

And if you think chairs suck, my own friking stage design hurt me last weekend. The start position was laying flat on your back on a "bed". A hard bed. With mag holders under your back. Ugh.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Vlad

[vluc]

Flex, best revenge is to design stages that cause open and limited shooters to lie on their bellies.....

[Mooney]

"Flex, best revenge is to design stages that cause open and limited shooters to lie on their bellies..... "

Yeah, but that wreaks havoc on moonclips....

[Flexmoney]

.. remember that P in the sport name?

I don't disagree at all...

But, how practical is it for me to be running around with 6 mag pouches on anyway?? (from the left hip bone to the small of the back)

Did you get hung up in the chair?

Nah, I didn't get hung up in it. That solid back was an improvement over the norm. It's just pretty hard to get the "touching the back of the chair" thing going with all the gear on.

[ampleworks]

I ran about 1/2 of a stage at Area 5 last year with that damn plastic chair on my back two mag pouches. Well we know now that XD mags and 773s will definately hold a chair securely.

I'm not asking for a special "IPSC chair" but let's be practical in the sense that it'll fit both the 125lb ladies and the 300 pound gentlemen.

This sport is supposed to be practical and fair to all competitors.

[cking]

What I do with that one is, say the knees must be under the table and dictate where the hands must be. That way they can assume any squatting position they like.

I had one stage sitting on the toilet, with a supplied pair of boxer shorts around your feet. Strong hand with toilet paper in it. No movement from toilet was required, gun was on a table loaded.

[Thomas Moore]

design a chair which has the back touching the seat therefore not haveing a hole where mags will be caught.

[Vlad]

.. remember that P in the sport name?

I don't disagree at all...

But, how practical is it for me to be running around with 6 mag pouches on anyway?? (from the left hip bone to the small of the back)

I have two answers to that. First you can try to carry only 4, plus one mag in the gun. I carry six too nowdays, one goes in the gun and that leaves me with 5. The fifth is in a mag pouch with a snap cover and its only there for those rare occasions where I managed to somehow lose all my mags somewhere.

However, the second answer is simpler .. gain more weight. That way you have more space on your belt before the mags get behind your back

The third answer (yeah I know) is maybe try a beltfed mag holder.

All kidding aside, I do get your point. At the very least chairs should be picked considering what safety hazards them may pose. I think most of the time, they end up being whatever chair someone had in their garage and didnt need anymore.

Edited July 26, 2006 by Vlad

[Kimberkid]

Front Sight showed a picture last year of a guy at Targeting Education, that carried a standard metal folding chair through an entire stage which included 28 rounds, 5 positions, and I believe 4 mag changes.

[BSeevers]

Front Sight showed a picture last year of a guy at Targeting Education, that carried a standard metal folding chair through an entire stage which included 28 rounds, 5 positions, and I believe 4 mag changes.

I saw it live and we all had a great laugh about it. He showed tenacity.

[Flyin40]

Flex, best revenge is to design stages that cause open and limited shooters to lie on their bellies.....

We already deal with this, its called Prone. Had to do it at Area 8.

Flyin40

[John Heiter]

I dislike chairs as start positions because there is so much variety. The worst around here are the standard folding metal chairs. Sure they're easy to deploy but they have big magazine grabbing holes, little spindly legs that get buried in sand and mud, a back that is too far back, etc. Classifiers with chair starts are especially bad. They will go to great lengths to provide detail on the "cigar box" the gun starts in but no thought is given to specifying a type/style of chair.

Call me a cheating SOB but rather than comlain about what I didn't like, I decided I would go ahead and build the "IPSC Chair".

Features:

* a heavy 2x4 frame that can hold lots of weight w/out giving

* a solid narrow back so it doesn't grab mags

* the back is at 90^ to the seat so you don't have to lean way back

* an undersized seat so you can get out of it fast

* seat and back are built out of nice, slick, no snag MDF

* a solid base so it won't sink into sand/mud/you name it

* slightly longer than normal legs so most shooters aren't "coming out of a hole"

* no arms or anything on the side so you can go in any direction but backwards

I thought about having:

* really long legs so that the shooter's seated position was closer to standing than seated

* shorter front legs than backs so getting out would be even quicker

* adjustable height so that shooters could set it to their own preference

etc. but discarded those as either too difficult or too "gamy"

as far as I know, none of the above is illegal but I'll readily admit it gives shooters an advantage. That's why I built it and that's why I think we need to regulate the "IPSC Chair" the same way we do poppers, targets, barricades, etc. I'm not a fan of a growing rulebook but chairs are one of the last uncontrolled elements to be found in classifiers and I think they deserve a little attention if we're going to allow them. The chair I built above probably cost $10-$15 in materials and took about an hour to build so I don't think standardizing on something would be that difficult or prohibitive.

John

[shred]

I just think the whole 'back against back of chair' thing is mostly specified by stage designers that want to "keep down the gaming" or whatever (yeah, I've done it too). Here's something I learned: it doesn't matter (unless something gets hooked on the chair). All of us sit normally in chairs all the time, and we all do it differently. Either specify the feet and/or knee/hand positions, or just have the RO wait 45 seconds to push the buzzer.

[Micah]

Shooting Production, we are faced with more problems than having magazines wrapping around half of out body. I have just always accepted that the chair issue is one more thing that makes shooting Production challenging!

[Jim Norman]

I dislike chairs as start positions because there is so much variety. The worst around here are the standard folding metal chairs. Sure they're easy to deploy but they have big magazine grabbing holes, little spindly legs that get buried in sand and mud, a back that is too far back, etc. Classifiers with chair starts are especially bad. They will go to great lengths to provide detail on the "cigar box" the gun starts in but no thought is given to specifying a type/style of chair.

Call me a cheating SOB but rather than comlain about what I didn't like, I decided I would go ahead and build the "IPSC Chair".

Features:

* a heavy 2x4 frame that can hold lots of weight w/out giving

* a solid narrow back so it doesn't grab mags

* the back is at 90^ to the seat so you don't have to lean way back

* an undersized seat so you can get out of it fast

* seat and back are built out of nice, slick, no snag MDF

* a solid base so it won't sink into sand/mud/you name it

* slightly longer than normal legs so most shooters aren't "coming out of a hole"

* no arms or anything on the side so you can go in any direction but backwards

I thought about having:

* really long legs so that the shooter's seated position was closer to standing than seated

* shorter front legs than backs so getting out would be even quicker

* adjustable height so that shooters could set it to their own preference

etc. but discarded those as either too difficult or too "gamy"

as far as I know, none of the above is illegal but I'll readily admit it gives shooters an advantage. That's why I built it and that's why I think we need to regulate the "IPSC Chair" the same way we do poppers, targets, barricades, etc. I'm not a fan of a growing rulebook but chairs are one of the last uncontrolled elements to be found in classifiers and I think they deserve a little attention if we're going to allow them. The chair I built above probably cost $10-$15 in materials and took about an hour to build so I don't think standardizing on something would be that difficult or prohibitive.

John

Build your chair and use it. I see nothing wrong with it. Likewise so long as a regular chair is the same for everyone and EVERYONE can sit on it in the prescribed position and the chair itself remains in a stable position for the entire matchm then any chair is OK. Heck, I could put a 2x2 piece of MDO on the ground and tell you to park your butt on it and so long as everyone was required to do the same, it is fair.

Lets face it, most of us fit the following " The older I get, the better I was"

We have shooters that weigh in from 80 pounds @ 4-6 to well over 300 and 6-6 No single postion is equally challenging to all. Low ports, tall ports, low seated starts, prone, etc. They are all subject to the shooters physical limitations.

We try not to be too restrictive in start positions, going so far as to state, shooter located in free fire zone as the only criteria.

Jim

[michiglock]

Speaking for myself, fat people and folding chairs should'nt mix.

[JFlowers]

Forget the whole special chair deal. Use a stool and specify stool location, knee position, and hand position. If the stool has to be inside a box painted on the ground (just large enough that the stool can be moved slightly to accomidate different sizes of shooters), kness have to be "under the table" or feet in another box, and hands have to be on knees.... well, there is only so much gaming that can occur and the hooking issues is removed.

[toowide]

Speaking for myself, fat people and folding chairs should'nt mix.

Amen to that. At least I have never come across a wicker chair at a match.

[Grump]

The start position was laying flat on your back on a "bed". A hard bed. With mag holders under your back. Ugh.

Quick, raise of hands!

How many of us take naps with our shooting gear on?

Seriously, in the most high-risk sleepytimes I've ever been in (roadside camping), I've NEVER kept more than one reload handy, and _on my belt_ was not my first choice of location.

[clown]

we did this sunday. i shoot production and didn't think it was that bad. a little uncomfortable but no trouble with the mags. guess i got lucky.

[AikiDale]

Ahem. Bubblegum starts should require the removal of the belt, holster and mags. Place them on the coffee table just like you would at home. When the bad guys come through the door and you have to start shooting, grab the empty gun and bluff your way through the scenario just like real life.

[/tongue in cheek]