Ok To Ask Shooter...

[rtr]

Is it ok to ask a shooter how they plan to move through the stage in order to be safe and avoid contact with them during the stage? I don't mean to make a practice of it, but had a stage this weekend with several different routes through it, some of which required some backing up and therefore potential safety issues, was easier to RO if I knew roughly where the shooter planned on going. But I know some shooters don't want to be bothered when they come up to the line.

[Chris Keen]

I wouldnt be offended or bothered by it. I appreciate the concern.

I also know most RO's want to know which way your going to turn and draw, which way the shooter will be tossing props, etc.

Safety should be the utmost in every aspect of our competitions.

[wide45]

The problem is that you might expect the competitor to run the stage the way he said he would. Us shooters know it does not always happen that way.

Be ready for the competitor to do anything. If there are RO traps, fix them before the match.

[kimel]

If a stage will, or may, involve retrograde movement then absolutely ask them. Of course just because they told you how they plan to shoot it doesn't mean you shouldn't be on your toes and watch out for odd things anyway. How many times have you started a stage and thought you knew how you were going to shoot it only to change your mind after you start?

It's all about the safety.

[sigp226]

I have no problem with an RO asking. I usually will tell the RO before I load if I am going to do something different or unusual, especially because I am left handed.

[sargenv]

I've been told that I am not supposed to ask the shooter what they are going to do since doing so is not part of the range commands. The shooter may tell you what he or she is going to do, but you have to expect them to change their mind. They don't have to tell you anything. This also applies to asking a shooter which direction they are going to turn when the start position is "facing uprange". It is up to them which way to turn all the way up to the time they hear the signal to start.

Vince

[GeorgeInNePa]

I have no problem with an RO asking. I usually will tell the RO before I load if I am going to do something different or unusual, especially because I am left handed I have issues.

[dajarrel]

If it will make the stage run safer, I say ask away.

If some one takes offense to it, apologize and move on.

Safety has GOT to be first in our game.

FWIW

dj

[Jim Norman]

I have no problem with an RO asking. I usually will tell the RO before I load if I am going to do something different or unusual, especially because I am left handed I have issues.

You sure do!

(But don't most of us?)

[Hey QuicksDraw!]

I was at the same match and as a shooter I told the RO which way I was going so as not to bump into him, and as the RO asked them which way they were going for the same reason.

If it helps all to be safe I see no problem. It was a fun and frustrating stage.

Edited May 29, 2006 by Hey QuicksDraw!

[HSMITH]

If there are traps or a very different way to run a stage I will tell the RO what I have planned. Some of them act as if I am wasting their time by telling them, some don't seem to care one way or the other, and some seem to appreciate it. I really don't care how they feel about it, if what I am going to do is different or has the potential to be unexpected I will announce it prior to LAMR whether they want to hear it or not.

[XRe]

IMO, if you have this sort of issue (and wide45's right, you should fix RO traps before the match begins, if at all possible), include a mention of it as part of the written walk through. Simply ask the shooters to each tell you what they're going to do as they come up to the line, but before you issue LAMR.

For a local match, just get everyone to agree to tell each other before LAMR.

It's not part of the range commands, and isn't appropriate to discuss it once you've started the shooter getting ready (for various reasons...). Asking about it ahead of getting the shooter setup, though (and giving them a heads-up about it in the walk through) should be just peachy...

[dfwmiket]

As a leftie, I always try and let the RO know which way I'm going to turn and also which way I'm going to go........that way no accidental bumps or run-ins, plus I think of it as courtesy. Us southpaws do tend to do things a little differently.

Mike

[Bigbadaboom]

As an R.O. I don't mind asking and as a shooter I don't mind being asked. The R.O. is responsible for not allowing him/herself to interfere with the shooter or the shooter gets a re-shoot. If it's going to get tight I'll ask in a heart beat. I do not take for granted that they will shoot it the way they told me though so I have to watch them closely, still.

[jasmap]

I expect the RO to ask me on facing uprange starts and COF's that have multiple turns and alleys. I don't mind at all. I want him/her to stay safe as well.

[Nik Habicht]

Whenever I see the potential for an RO trap, or whenever I expect to finish a stage by shooting a target near the 180, or when I expect to finish in a way different location than other shooters, I tell the RO.......

Neither one of us wants to be scared....

[Kyreb]

I frequently ask the competitor questions before LAMR. I want to be out of the way of the competitor and keep everybody safe.

IE: Which way they intend to turn when a start calls for facing up range. I then move the crowd behind us to the opposite side of the bay, out of the possible line of fire in case of a ND on the turn and draw.

If the competitor does not like it...I say tough toenails. It is my job to keep the COF, the competitor, and spectators safe.

ROing for ~15 years, I have only has one azzhat in Detroit (DSC) give me any grief. He was not the even shooter, just a spectator who took offense at being asked to step to one side.

Otherwise, reasonable people realize you are just there to help out. It sure isn't those big RO paychecks.

[tightloop]

It is ok to ask the shooter if you ard an RO, but be prepared for them to tell you NO if you are shooting as well..some of us want to win without tipping out plan to anyone...

[L9X25]

It is ok to ask the shooter if you ard an RO, but be prepared for them to tell you NO if you are shooting as well..some of us want to win without tipping out plan to anyone...

I get the feeling that as RO (or even a spectator) they are going to figure out what you did after watching you do it. Seems pretty trivial to attempt to keep it secret since you will not be depriving anybody of the information.

[tightloop]

Perhaps, but if you do it fast enough, they might not remember all you did...and each second counts..I know it sounds petty and selfish, but those are the breaks... I might tell the guys on my squad, but if I had a potential stage breaking way to do it, I certainly would not tell anyone...

[38superman]

As a leftie, I always try and let the RO know which way I'm going to turn and also which way I'm going to go........that way no accidental bumps or run-ins, plus I think of it as courtesy. Us southpaws do tend to do things a little differently.

Mike

+1

As a southpaw I often run the stage opposite / turn opposite to the other shooters.

I always make a note to let the RO know which way I am going.

It does neither of us any good to collide on a stage.

The primary responsibility of the RO on any stage is safety.

I would think it is his perogative to ask the shooter whatever he wants to ask in that regard.

Tony

[Waltermitty]

I guess I'm inclined to the other end of the spectrum. Many RO's get into the habit of asking various questions or putting requirements on the shooter (and observers) that aren't in the rule book. I think those are bad habits.

On occasion a shooter will volunteer that they're gonna turn this way or do this or that. Unless it is something *really* out of the ordinary (like the one-armed shooter that ran the stage in reverse), I tell them to run it any way they wish and then forget everything they said; because if they do something they didn't plan (which happens to a significant number of shooters whenever the buzzer goes off, or they miss ) I don't want to be standing in the wrong place when they fail to follow the plan we had agreed on. My job as an RO is to see what is actually happening and manage the situation accordingly. If a shooter says he's going to go Left, and he goes right and I crash into him, it's pretty much a moot point what he said before the buzzer.

If a stage design is so fouled up that you MUST know what the shooter is going to do before he/she does it, I would suggest that the stage needs to be fixed before you run it, or you'll have to stay far enough back to avoid any conflict.

Moving people back and forth for "turn then draw" stages is one of those areas I struggle with. It may seem effective at local club matches where you're the only people in sight for miles, but at larger venues and many small ranges, you just can't clear the parking lot, the road at the back of the bay, the bleachers, or the bay across the range. I've seen some guys get pretty worked up because a squad gets tired of being run from one side of the bay to the other when there isn't a clear area for the shooter to draw and fire up range. If you are really that concerned that a particular shooter is going to forget to turn, then draw, there are some tactics to apply as an RO that are better than trying to clear an entire zip code so you can stand and watch sombody ND up range. I am also concerned that for some new shooters, "clearing the UP range" may give the wrong signal that pushing the draw on a turn is OK. That doesn't even address the guy that turns the exact opposite direction he said he would turn.

I'm one of those guys that thinks we should try to run each shooter like they're national contenders at a National match, and John Ambidon is the shooter. (not that that has happened to me, that much) That gets them, and us, ready for the big matches.

So, I'm a shooter: I don't have to tell you what I'm going to do. I don't have to nod when I'm ready, and please, please, please, don't ask me if I'm ready when my hand is on my gun. The proper commands are in the rule book. Safety is not compromised by following them to the letter. In fact, deviations from the standards (e.g. "gas 'em up Bubba" "heat 'em up" etc) and sloppy discipline has created safety problems and DQ's at major matches.

If you give the proper range commands as a matter of habit and you receive proper range commands as a matter of course, if something odd does happen, you'll both know where you are in the process and what the correct next step will be.

If you MUST know how the shooter will run a course of fire because you think it's a safety issue otherwise, it's possible you shouldn't be running shooters; because it ain't the guys that follow their plans that get into trouble, it's the ones that don't. If you can't safely and consistently run shooters without knowing the plan before hand, you'll be of little use on the range when somebody does something "unexpected".

[No.343]

I don't mind being asked at all. As a leftie I also do things differently. I had ROs bump into me before, so I make it a habit to tell them what I intend to do. This has eliminated the problem...until I change my mind or completely forgot what I was going to do after the buzzer went off.

[John Heiter]

If I'm running someone and they tell me they're going to go straight ahead and a straight ahead start kind of stage then I may wonder what their deal is but in general it's a wonderful thing for a shooter to be classy enough to inform the RO of their intentions before doing anything unusual.

One of the best examples I've ever seen of this was at the MS State 3-Gun championship a couple years back when one of the shooters in the last squad of the day (also a forum regular) saw a way to engage an array that no one else had seen. He went so far as to take the CRO downrange to quietly explain his plan and get the CRO's signoff on it during the walk through. As an RO on the stage, I wondered what was up with their little pow wow but it wasn't my place to ask and the CRO wasn't telling anyway. After the run, it was obvious what they had chatted about and I remember thinking two things. 1. How clever the guy was for finding a sweet spot that 60+ other shooters had overlooked and 2. How smart it was of him to let the CRO know of his unusual plan and get his ok on it before the run.

[wide45]

Great post by Waltermitty. Somebody gets it.

One of the points covered in the level 1 RO class, is that you don't need to ask which direction on an uprange start. Stand on center, pay attention, react as needed.