2006 Uspsa Area 2 Championship

[Loves2Shoot]

so what if the super squad gets extra minutes to look at the stages, big deal, they're competing against themselves.

I think not. Hard to see how far off you are when special "favors" are made.

[Bear23]

so what if the super squad gets extra minutes to look at the stages, big deal, they're competing against themselves.

I think not. Hard to see how far off you are when special "favors" are made.

Agreed. We had walk throughs at the Nats and it was no problem. Can't see why it wouldn't be 'fair' here. It would be nice to have some consistency with all of the major matches. Last year it was a difficult time to absorb the stage in a mere 5 minutes with 15 other bodies pushing and shoving...especially in 'Al Quaeda Freight' Plus being pulled away from my squad for chronograph abnormalities....twice...where i did not have a walk through period...guess which stages i blew????

[GeneBray]

I view the rules quoted being used to justify why not to allow walk throughs as opposed to a way to manage the walk through. Prior to the adding of these rules, there was nothing prohibiting or allowing walk throughs. What appears to be a way manage when and how walk throughs are conducted is now being used to prohibit them.

I also view fairness to all a red herring. The match dates are published will in advance. Most people can schedule their time to arrive soon enough to register and review the stages. There will always be some, who for unforeseen or uncontrollable reasons, cannot arrive "on-time". So the staff will punish all shooters for the sake of a few.

If the match staff says no walk through (certainly within their right), then ALL squads should only recieve five minutes. The top level shooter who has not achieved super squad status my make more use of the extra few minutes the super squad was allowed that the he/she did not receive. That is grossly unfair the shooter who does not get the extra time.

Since shooter schedules vary, without walk throughs, some shooters will see others shoot the stages, talk to those who have, and formulate a shooting plan. Another shooter may not be able to do the same. That too is grossly unfair to the shooter who walks onto a stage cold and has only five minutes to come up with a plan.

I don't know the squad sizes but if they are 15/squad, then each shooter gets 20 seconds to come up with a shooting plan. How many of you who shot last year want to come up with a plan for the "Fort stage" in 20 seconds? If you are the first shooter in the squad, you are toast. If you are the last you might have a plan that works. Is that fair?

[konkapot]

Hard to tell what's tougher....shooting first, with minimal time to get a plan, or shooting last, which arguably gives you more planning time, but like Chuck/Lawman said........it becomes a pushing contest w/ your squadmates.

FY42385

[Loves2Shoot]

And you don't want to get into a pushing match with Lawman, cause you would most likely lose.

It is a big advantage for those who shoot the second start time. The morning folks get a very short stick with no walk through opportunity.

[bgary]

My two cents (mods, you may want to spin this off to a separate thread?)

US 8.7.5 is generally intended to address two things:

1) the guy from some other squad who wants to rehearse his moves on a stage while *your* squad is shooting it. 8.7.5 gives the RO some "teeth" he can use to tell the person to stay off the stage until *his* squad is scheduled to be there.

2) the people who want to "play" on the props before the match begins, during downtime, whatever. "unsupervised" playing has often turned out to be a problem from both a match administration standpoint *and* a competitive standpoint. Not only can it present a significant competitive advantage to someone who has been able to spend a lot of time "trying out" different approaches to a complex stage.... it has also, on occasion, become a factor in the match, either because props and mechanisms get improperly handled, or... in at least a couple of cases I know of, someone actually *changed* the stage (moved things from their original places).

So, in general, the idea is that if there is an RO on the stage, and he gives you permission to wander thru the stage, you can walk through and check out angles, but [generally] you canNOT manipulate the stage ("look but don't touch" - you can walk in the shooting area, check out the angles, etc., but NOT open doors, activate moving targets, etc). And, in general, if there is not an RO there to give you permission, you can look at the stage all you want from uprange, but can't walk through it.

Those are "normal" at any big match. What doesn't seem "normal" is to make it hard for shooters to figure out the stages, either to make them harder or to edge towards the "surprise stage" end of the spectrum. I don't know what the Area-2 match is doing, and don't have a dog in the hunt, but... in *general*, most big matches allow shooters allow shooters to look at the stages from uprange, anytime the range is open, and allow shooters to walk through ("look but don't touch") on the stages whenever there is an RO present and no other squad on the stage.

EVERY shooter should have have a fair opportunity to "understand" the challenges that the stage presents... and if that means allowing a shooter to walk through during "downtime" (an RO is there, but there is no squad on the stage), I think we should allow that as much as possible. Because otherwise (as others have noted), the game changes - it is no longer about how well you shoot, but how well you shove your way to the front of a crowd and memorize what you see. That's not what our game is supposed to be about.

My humble opinion is that match staff should try to NOT be a factor in the outcome of the competition. NOT speaking specifically of Area-2 (again, I don't know the facts) but... in general, my opinion is that if match staff - through action or inaction - limits a shooters' ability to understand and perform to their best ability on a stage, they have affected the outcome of the match, and that's a Bad Thing in my book.

$.02

Bruce

Edited October 12, 2006 by bgary

[Bob Hostetter]

Well said........

Well said........

[GeneBray]

I appreciate your comments and agree--well said, Bruce

Another point came up today in discussing specifically the no walk through at the upcoming Area 2 match but the issue should not be limited to just that match. The issue is really any match that does not provide adequate time for competitors to examine the stages and formulate a shooting plan.

What would happen at any match without adequate time to formulate a shooting plan if shooters that were not prepared came to the line and stated they were not ready to shoot because they did not have a shooting plan? How are the ROs going to address the issue.

I don't believe there is anything that would address that in the current rules. Match timelines would be out the window. Certainly not anything the staff or competitors want IMHO. Nor am I advocating there should be such a rule(s).

[Mistral404]

I was at last's years match. There was almost universal grumbling about not being able to walk through the stages the day/evening before.

Most people would have been very respectfull of the ROs shooting. But again most of the stages were clear by the evening.

What did we have? Four diffucult stages in a row? Five minutes was not enough time. There would have been no harm in allowing people to walk the stages the night before or in the late afternoon when the shooting had stop.

I am not advocating walth-throughs while another squad is shooting only when the stages are empty.

The MD explicitly mentioned this issue at the end of the match. My issue is not with the number of technical stages, Paul and his staff do an excellent job of stage designs. My issue is allowing folks to adequately prepare for a stage just so long as it does not interfere with the operations of the match.

[shooterbenedetto]

since there is no walk through, anydoby withdrawing from the match?

picture this you travelled all the way to arizona spent all the money to getthere to have fun and shoot fun stages but NO WALK THROUGH.?

if you are an A shooter, and you dont get enough time of walk through,

I think by the time you finish this competition you will be ranked as

B shooter for shooting poorly and No game plan.... not to mention

you paid $300.00 for an entance fee!!!!!!!!!!!! this sucks.. i'll rather shoot

my local club have a great time shoot it twice and only spend $50.00?

[Theo Carter]

since there is no walk through, anydoby withdrawing from the match?

picture this you travelled all the way to arizona spent all the money to getthere to have fun and shoot fun stages but NO WALK THROUGH.?

if you are an A shooter, and you dont get enough time of walk through,

I think by the time you finish this competition you will be ranked as

B shooter for shooting poorly and No game plan.... not to mention

you paid $300.00 for an entance fee!!!!!!!!!!!! this sucks.. i'll rather shoot

my local club have a great time shoot it twice and only spend $50.00?

I really don't see why everyone is making a big deal out of this. I think we need to move on. Would it be nice to be able to walk though the stages the day before yes but the match staff says no so if you don't like it give up your place at the match and let someone who want to be there go.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Theo Carter

[GeneralChang]

I shot the match last year and even though I observed several incosistencies, I had a great time. The stages were tough with little to no time to preview but we all made the best of it. Our squad consisted of a few great guys and a few not so great guys, in the end though it was well worth the trip. If a slot was available, I'd do it again.

[AZ38super]

Okay everyone, sit back and take a deep breath.

I normally stay out of this type of rants but I can’t take it any longer.

First of all we need to remember we are playing a game and are there for FUN!!!!

I understand the problems stated as we had many on our squad last year that hogged the walk-thru time but we got over it. Then we also had shooters from other squads trying to look at stages during our walk thru time as well.

The problem being addressed is in attempt to stop people from playing with the stage props over and over and causing other problems related to the props.

Everyone will get to see the props function when the RO’s give the orientation on the stage. And you can look at the stage from behind the line all you want when the stage is not in use. There is no special treatment based on who you are based on what I have seen the last three years.

As for last years stages…the couple stages everyone keeps saying were so tough were my best stages and I won them in C Open. I have only been playing this game for three years and I only saw the stages in our 5 minute walk thru time just like everyone else did. So if I can figure it out in that amount of time than so can the higher class shooters fighting to be on top.

But then we have weekend matches with stages just as good and often times better than ones in the Classic so it does make it a bit easier to gather a quick plan.

There is a TON of TIME and WORK put into this match every year to make it the match it is and I get tired of the crying over the stupid little things. If it is really that bad then by all means withdraw your name right now and let someone else take your spot, otherwise buck up and come HAVE FUN with the rest of us shooters.

Please cut Paul, Rich, Bob, Barb and the rest of the people working on this match a bit of slack, there is no way they can please each and everyone one of you but they do one heck of a job and deserve a bit of thanks.

Sorry for taking your time with my ranting.

See you all at the Classic....

[TDean]

It is a game, but we're pretty serious about it.

I think most people understand the need curbing unauthorized walkthroughs (people walking the stage when their squad isn't there, people playing with props when an RO isn't present), but those things can be dealt with in other ways than instituting a NO WALKTHROUGH rule.

I hope the organizers can re-evaluate their approach without thinking that the folks on BE's forum are forcing their hand. Every other major match in the country has to deal with this issue. While sticking it to the shooters may be the easiest, it simply isn't the best approach.

Just enforce common sense walkthroughs.

1) RO permission before you look at the stage

2) If you're not with scheduled squad, get off the stage.

Something that Area 1 did this year was the RO’s collected score sheets BEFORE the shooter walked past them to look at the COF. A few times an RO would bark at me “do I have your score sheet !” as I was air gunning through ports. That sort of thing will deter transient walkthrough’ers.

One more thing, if we do have a “no walkthrough except for the 5min” rule, PLEASE BE POLITE. Go to the rear of the line. Don’t push your way into the middle. You’re screwing up somebody’s mental plan….dammit

[AZ Stats Chic]

Clarification:

2006 Desert Classic Walk-Through Policy

On Thursday, 11/9, if no competitors are shooting, preparing to shoot, or scoring the stage, the Range Master has approved registered competitors only, to enter or move through a course of fire.

On Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, competitors may enter or move through a course of fire with prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master.

USPSA rule US8.7.5 will be strictly enforced.

"No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master. Violators may be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6 for willful offenses."

Section 10.6 - Match Disqualification - Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Rio Salado Desert Classic Match Directors

Paul Caudill & Bob LaMarca

[cruiten]

Cool!

[lynn jones]

i heard there was a rolla coster! my i please ride, SIR?

lynn

[Loves2Shoot]

Thanks!

[AZ Stats Chic]

i heard there was a rolla coster! my i please ride, SIR?

lynn

Yes... there IS a roller coaster! Let's have some fun!!!

A2Chic

[basman]

HAs the round count been determined yet? Want to ship ammo next week.

Thanks.

[cruiten]

What is the round count for the A2 Match?

Round count is 291.

A2Chic

[ChuckS]

What is the round count for the A2 Match?

Round count is 291.

A2Chic

I guess I will bring 292 rounds in case I have a make-up shot

[basman]

What is the round count for the A2 Match?

Round count is 291.

A2Chic

I guess I will bring 292 rounds in case I have a make-up shot

But 300 is such a nice number.

[outerlimits]

this is area 2-bring 600.

[ChuckS]

Check out the list o' sponsors

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