Experimental Aircraft

[yeahyeah]

Does anyone have any sites or forums on experimental aircraft, with people as smart as us on it. Looking to perchase but not sure which one is for me.

Thanks Adam

[Nolan]

Hmm, don't get a Long EZ!

John Denver's Long EZ

Nolan

[diehli]

You wanna buy something that'll take you high in the air, but is experimental?

Are you sure you're not high right now?

Edited March 2, 2006 by 300lbGorilla

[Flexmoney]

I see the makings of a Jeff Foxworthy skit....

[Rob Boudrie]

One of the local members in Area 7 built a Lancair IV - look for tail number N4SX on the Lancair gallery at www.lancair.net/builders3.html. His email is on that page if you want to contact him for his thoughts on your project.

Whatever you set for a budget, plan on spending more. Much more .

We made a really nice safe table out of the packing crate which lasted a couple of years until the state police bulldozers moved it when they were looking under our berms.

[Viggen]

I am not sure of the purpose of that EZ article except maybe for the author to grind on folks who are "macho" - read lessons learned section.

The article is a hit piece.

Denver himself did not have a Pilot's license. He had lost it due to ongoing drug/alcohol issues. So here we have a famous "has been" with chemical issues flying planes he is not licensed to fly - and it's the plane's fault?

And yes 300, Experimental is the only thing that is keeping things going in the small aircraft world. Read about it - there is a lot going on.

Get a membership with the EAA, the Experimental Aircraft Association. Check with them and locate the nearest EAA chapter. They will have monthly meetings where you can meet folks who arre actively building and flying Experimental aircraft. You might take a look at what the locals are buildiing since they have some knowledge with a particular type rather than just heading off on your own.

And go to Oskosh, if you can. The biggest airport in the world for a couple of days each year.

[ChuckS]

Does anyone have any sites or forums on experimental aircraft, with people as smart as us on it. Looking to perchase but not sure which one is for me.

Thanks Adam

(I am assuming this is not a troll )

Adam,

You probably know this but I though I would mention The Experimental Aircraft Association The annual fly-in is probably the largest collection of experimental aircraft on the planet. Like some of our USPSA nationals, it is in a place that tends to be hot and humid, but if you are shopping, go there! You will be able to talk to people with real experience in every type imaginable!

Edited March 2, 2006 by ChuckS

[Nebraskan]

I figured on some of the responses you have seen already.

For sale ads see www.barnstormers.com or buy an online subsription to www.tradeaplane.com

Best information and trade magazine is kitplanes at www.kitplanes.com

It is easy to be seduced by the "fast glass" composite planes. What you really need to do is identify you mission.

1) What is your pilot experience?

2) What do you REALLY plan to do with the plane? Local sightee trips, travel (be honest on this one)

3) How many passengers, if any (90% of filghts are solo even in multi seat aircraft)

4) Do you want to build or buy existing? Don't be seduced by building as a lower cost way to get in the air. You can most often buy a completed model that you are considering building for the cost of it's parts.

5) Take build times with a grain of salt. Generally plan on 2-3 times the amount quoted by the kit manufacturer.

I aready ran the gambit of starting small, going to a fast plane (Mooney) then back to a small two seater. I finally accepted the true mission and bought accordingly.

[Viggen]

I figured on some of the responses you have seen already.

For sale ads see www.barnstormers.com or buy an online subsription to www.tradeaplane.com

Best information and trade magazine is kitplanes at www.kitplanes.com

It is easy to be seduced by the "fast glass" composite planes. What you really need to do is identify you mission.

1) What is your pilot experience?

2) What do you REALLY plan to do with the plane? Local sightee trips, travel (be honest on this one)

3) How many passengers, if any (90% of filghts are solo even in multi seat aircraft)

4) Do you want to build or buy existing? Don't be seduced by building as a lower cost way to get in the air. You can most often buy a completed model that you are considering building for the cost of it's parts.

5) Take build times with a grain of salt. Generally plan on 2-3 times the amount quoted by the kit manufacturer.

I aready ran the gambit of starting small, going to a fast plane (Mooney) then back to a small two seater. I finally accepted the true mission and bought accordingly.

Very good advice

[carinab]

Do you know how many guns you could buy for the price of an airplane??!?!?!

[rtr]

We made a really nice safe table out of the packing crate which lasted a couple of years until the state police bulldozers moved it when they were looking under our berms.

Care to share why the state police bulldozed your berms?

[yeahyeah]

Thanks for the help so far, good advice. Planing on just flying around Kali for the most part, lots of long weekend get-a-ways and the like. Will want to do some cross country at some point. I want to buy a prebuilt, dont have the time or desire to build one myself, looking at spending about US$40.000 on the plane. I've been looking at Pulsars, Glasairs and Lancairs. The Lancairs are a bit out of my price range, so are the glasairs, looking for maybe a rotax powered craft?. Two people and a little bagage, not for a family, 170/180 cruise would be nice. I might have to bump my cost a little higher thou.

Thanks Adam.

[Nebraskan]

At that price range, Given your mission, cruise speed, 2 seats and baggage, I would stongly consider a Van's RV6A (nosedragger) or RV6 (taildragger) with a fixed pitch prop. You will find VFR examples in the $40-$50,000 range. Constant speed prop and minimal IFR will get you into the $50-$60,000 range.

They are the most popular (3,000 built) plane, all metal, (if hangar space is rare or expensive), very insurable (10-20% more expensive than similar certified planes), easy to fly, and comfortable. I built most of one, but it came to the point of engine, avionics and paint and I decided the $60,000 that I was going to have in it was more than I cared to put into a hobby, so I sold it and went back to a less expensive plane.

You will find many available due to their sheer numbers and quite a few in Kali (I assume California) as the factory is in Oregon, Washington or Idaho, I forget.

[herky]

Try www.eaa.org There are also local chapters of the Experimental Aircraft Association. If you get the chance the annual flyin at Oshkosh WI is a must see event.

[Tom Mainus]

Rob,

I am with RTR on this one. Why did the police have to bulldoze your berms?

Tom

[EricW]

(I really didn't want to post in the main forum, but since I would prefer not to have anyone else I know get killed in a plane crash...)

Adam,

- The gold-standards in Experimentals are: RV, Lancair, Glasair. They are the best-designed and retain their resale better than anything.

- The RV is designed and built in Aurora, OR. I used to work with Van's brother. If I was in the market, I would go RV. It's not an accident that Van Grunsven is the world's largest aircraft "manufacturer." Van is an engineer's engineer.

- If you rip back on the stick hard enough, you can rip an RV in half. It's been done. You have been warned. The RV is strong. It is not an Extra, however. Do not be fooled by the control authority. You don't get to use it all.

- The EAA guys in the Portland, OR area are some of the sharpest guys in the airplane business. You would do well to consult with the local EAA chapter there. The planes those guys turn out rival any Citation or Gulfstream in terms of fit, finish, and quality.

- The EAA as a whole is a collection of the biggest dumbf***'s I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with. We're talking about people who are literally too stupid to find North on a map. They recycle $10 airfilters. After getting concerned about the safety of my buddy's latest purchase (a Kitfox), I did some research, and came to the inescapable conclusion I wouldn't trust 99.9% of the yahoos in the experimental aircraft business to flip a burger without mucking it up.

- My friend has bought two experimental aircraft in the last three years. Based on what I've seen, the average homebuilder is a clueless retard who readily and haplessly trades off his life expectancy and that of his passengers to save $5 on a bag of bolts.

- Based on the engineering I've seen, a lot of the people designing experimental aircraft are clueless retards, which seems to be how they locate their customer base. Clear plastic aquarium tubing IS NOT SUITABLE FOR USE AS FUEL LINE! Thank you very much.

- Buying an experimental aircraft is more often than not playing Russian Roulette with your life. I just can't believe the stupid sh*t I've seen over the years. The #1 problem is the use of hardware store grade bolts in lieu of true AN bolts. And the only way to know for sure is to virtually completely disassemble the a/c and check every bolt.

- Certificated aircraft have their issues as well, particularly *older* Certificated aircraft. However, the engineering safety margins on Certificated aircraft are at least double that of a lot of the glorified boxkites being sold. The Kitfox and it's brethren come immediately to mind when discussing safety factors. Yes, they are getting more performance out of experimental aircraft. It's because there's less metal in them.

Think I'm cynical? Check the accident records. Sh*t that virtually NEVER happens with 60 and 70 year old airplanes is happening with regularity with experimentals: broken wings, control surfaces ripping off, control linkages failing, dozens up dozens of prop separations, engines ripping themselves out of the mounts. I was just dumbfounded looking through it all.

That said, a properly built experimental aircraft, such as an RV built by an experienced builder is probably the safest piston-driven aircraft in the skies today.

Caveat Emptor.

P.S.

What's your budget look like after the plane's paid for? Between hangar fees, maintenance and insurance, you're going to be looking at a $500 to $1500 in monthly bills. That's before you fill the tanks. You have to fly one hell of a lot for renting or part ownership to not be cheaper.

Edited March 3, 2006 by EricW

[Patrick Sweeney]

Inquiring minds want to know. Details, man, details.

[EricW]

Patrick,

That WAS the abridged version. I could have written the better part of a book if I didn't need to go back to the shop and get to work.

[Loves2Shoot]

RV6 fly nice, I had a friend who had one (before he went up in a flame of glory in his hotrod plane at an airshow )

Lancair's are really nice, they build them here. But I've known more people be happier and spend less on a share of a plane that meets their needs.

[joer]

The real question is - which Van's.......

[mpolans]

It's all about the RVs... Lancairs are nice...if you can afford them!

[AlamoShooter]

One of the local members in Area 7 built a Lancair IV - look for tail number N4SX on the Lancair gallery at www.lancair.net/builders3.html. His email is on that page if you want to contact him for his thoughts on your project.

Whatever you set for a budget, plan on spending more. Much more .

We made a really nice safe table out of the packing crate which lasted a couple of years until the state police bulldozers moved it when they were looking under our berms.

Ok I will bite on that =( Looking Under your Berms)??

[sfinney]

Any model with a parachute will do.

[eric nielsen]

What EricW said. You'll get much more quality information by joining AOPA. All it takes is a student pilot cert # [a solo-flying card] and their dues which are about the same as USPSA.

RV, Lancair, Glasair for kitbuilts. Watch someone else fly it, first. Then climb in.

To that I would add factory planes Globe Swift, Mooney, Cessna Cardinal, Mooney, Grumman Tiger, and Mooney.

Did I mention that Mooney makes a good plane?

Also, as EricW hinted, if you can't afford to pay the cost of your plane a 2nd time [the costs of hangers, INSURANCE, maintenance, fuel, etc for your 1st two years ownership] then you can't afford that plane.

[wsimpso1]

Starting by answering your question - www.homebuiltairplanes.com which is mostly for builders not buyers. Next up, come to Oshkosh during EAA Airventure. Or look up regional fly-in's closer to home at www.eaa.com. Next place to check is Sport Aviation and Kit Planes magazines, but they do have something in common with gun mags - they have a hard time ever saying anything bad about a tested airplane (gun). I believe that Kit Planes is running a forum where you might find some honesty.

As both a homebuilder and a designer, I can say that Experimentals, when properly built, are where it is at. When they are not properly built they are really bad news. The builder's care in building is very important to the topic.

Folks can say what they want, but statistically, airplanes on Experimental certificates (after having flown off their test time) have about the same safety record as certificated aircraft, with the same predominant causes of accidents - fuel exhaustion, continued VFR in IFR, stall/spin etc. They also have about the same level of mechanical problems resulting in accidents. Don't believe me, check it out with the FAA's own website.

This is not to say that there have not been some spectacular failures... Two local (fatal) incidents with homebuilts on their test programs that I know of:

Sonerai built with an O-200 instead of VW conversion, tricycle gear instead of taildragger, never checked the CG, ballasted the tail based upon calculations instead of measurement, found it to be unstable during taxi test (indicating aft CG), still did not weigh it or check CG, finally flew it and it got away from him about 20 seconds into the first flight;

Lancair built without removing the peel ply from the bonded joints (The manual only tells you in every sub-chapter that you have to do this or the bond joints will fail with usually fatal results). Well, with material built into the bonded joints that is there to come off easily, the airplane disassembled itself on a high speed pass. Story is this was the second flight.

The other two local fatals that I know of were stall/spin within the airfield. Only airplane problems on those flights had to do with the pilots in the command seats.

You pays your money and you takes your chances...

Billski