Letter To The USPSA Board Re: Revolver Optics

[RangerMcFadden]

As this forum has been discussing, the USPSA board is toying with the notion of allowing optics in the revolver division. I recently wrote a letter to the board and this past weekend at USPSA nationals it was signed by all but 3 revolver participants. I would like to extend the offer to add your signature to this letter electronically before I sent it to the board. If you'd like to sign it, please message me directly with your name, USPSA number, and any credentials you'd like to ad (such as (C)RO status, classification, participation at USPSA nationals/area matches).

 

To: USPSA President Yee-Min Lin and USPSA Board Members

 

At the January 2024 board meeting a proposal was made as to whether optics would be allowed within the Revolver division followed up with a member survey in August. We, the undersigned, wished to bring our concerns directly to the board of directors that could not adequately expressed in the recent member survey.

 

We believe that the addition of optics to the Revolver division would be a detriment to USPSA.

 

While it is impossible to succinctly condense all the nuanced opinions and concerns that the undersigned have in one letter, we wish to share the following concerns:

 

(1) Allowing optics would add an additional barrier to entry and frustrate existing USPSA revolver shooters. We believe this would lower participation for both new shooters trying the division and for the seasoned revolver shooters forgoing major match(es) in favor of purchasing new optic(s).

• a. This is analogous to what happened when allowing 8 Minor, 6 Major guns become obsolete as soon as the rules were published. This frustrated many shooters who invested in putting together a specific gun and rig for one division. We feel adding optics would have a similar negative effect.

• b. A commonly cited complaint about getting into Revolver division is the cost of equipment. Revolver is sufficiently different from all other divisions that equipment from other divisions cannot be used. It is not uncommon to spend $2-3k on a competition ready iron sight set up. An optic would add to this barrier.

 

(2) Permitting optics within USPSA Revolver division would add a unique configuration not currently used in any other shooting sport. This could require existing revolver shooters to purchase an additional gun just to keep shooting revolver in USPSA. Currently you can shoot the same revolver in ICORE, Steel Challenge, and USPSA. Allowing optics would nullify that benefit as most revolver divisions using an optic in other sports allow a compensator/ports such as Steel Challenge’s OSR and ICORE’s Open divisions.

• a. In correspondence with this letter’s principal author, area 8 director Russell Fortney stated that the proposed rule would be “optional… similar to PCC”. The undersigned contend that if optics are permitted, they would be a de facto requirement much like Open and PCC divisions.

 

(3) Permitting optics within the Revolver division would move USPSA drastically away from IPSC rules. As USPSA national matches are a required avenue to attend IPSC World Shoots, the proposed addition of optics would require participants to either add an optic to win USPSA events only for the optic to be removed to compete in IPSC matches.

 

(4) Adding optics may result in all the current revolver classifiers to be invalidated. The only solution the undersigned can foresee is a complete “re-do” of all revolver classifier scores to ensure they are even remotely accurate.

 

(5) Revolver is unique with no close approximation to be found in other divisions. In no other division are gun handling skills as heavily weighted. The addition of optics dilutes what makes the division unique.

 

While the undersigned disagree with the proposed changes, we applaud the board’s consideration to increase revolver participation. The undersigned believe the formation of a revolver centric committee tasked with increasing revolver participation would be more impactful compared to a rule change or member survey.

 

Below each signature, is a brief qualification. We hope that these bona fides, in total, demonstrate to the board that the undersigned have the experience to offer an informed opinion and demonstrate an enthusiastic dedication to the Revolver division.

[BritinUSA]

I don’t shoot revolver; I wish you the best of luck with this, I remember the discussions with Major-6/Minor-8. Some people saw the potential problems immediately, though in hindsight it was obvious.

 

A 33% increase in capacity along with 8-shot arrays gave the Minor shooter an overwhelming advantage compared to a 6-shot revolver that would be left either with a convoluted stage plan, or standing reloads.

 

Your point (3) is one shared with other divisions, noticeably Production and especially CarryOptics which is as far removed from its IPSC equivalent as a duck is to a banana.

[JFlowers]

Is item #2 accurate?  Aren't optic equipped revolvers used in ICORE and Bianchi?

[Ice36]

4 hours ago, JFlowers said:

Is item #2 accurate?  Aren't optic equipped revolvers used in ICORE and Bianchi?

Icore open allows for optics, comps and ported barrels, uspsa is only asking to add dots.

[dannyd]

I only shoot revolvers, couldn't they just add revolver with or with optics.  And we just check the box?

[MikeyScuba]

I think we all can agree  ports and comps do @@@@ all for a 9 minor gun, especially when  revo tends towards heavy bullets with light loads.

 

But I got no dog in this fight.

Edited Thursday at 05:41 PM by MikeyScuba

[Makicjf]

My first thought regarding optic Revo was "Cool!".  It's is a blast to run open major in uspsa or OSR in SCSA.

  However, allowing a dot is , just as you say , requiring a dot;  allowing a dot destroys parity with IPSC for the World Shoot.  I don't think adding dots will increase Revo participation, it will just penalize the few dedicated die hards with big goals.

    I'd sign no, even though my original survey answer was yes, for the above reasons.

  Can we make optic Revo a category?  Could that be an option?

Jason

[Joe4d]

8 hours ago, JFlowers said:

Is item #2 accurate?  Aren't optic equipped revolvers used in ICORE and Bianchi?

not really accurate..
Comps and ports are pretty irrelevant in 45-50 oz  revolvers shooting 120pf ammo.
Dont see many comps other than that make believe on hanging on the end of 6" 929's.
Most open guns I see are standard barreled 6 and 8 shot non ported. Despite rule change seems most stages are 6 shot neutral.

I call into question 1 B as well,, Im not seeing 3k revolvers,, In fact some of the guys I talk with specifically shoot revolver because its cheaper.. no mags, no extended base pads, more tolerant reloads.  Trigger job is a hair harder than a typical plastic fantastic, but not more so than a 1911.

Same with SC with a nonexistent power factor, cant see any point of not allowing comps or ports..

To be honest I highly suspect no amount of equipment rule changes will attract new revolver shooters to USPSA. The game as currently run simply isnt all that well suited to the platform. 

I do agree though when contemplating rule changes, the BOD should ask the people that actually shoot the division, vs the general membership. 

[pskys2]

12 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I don’t shoot revolver; I wish you the best of luck with this, I remember the discussions with Major-6/Minor-8. Some people saw the potential problems immediately, though in hindsight it was obvious.

 

A 33% increase in capacity along with 8-shot arrays gave the Minor shooter an overwhelming advantage compared to a 6-shot revolver that would be left either with a convoluted stage plan, or standing reloads.

 

Your point (3) is one shared with other divisions, noticeably Production and especially CarryOptics which is as far removed from its IPSC equivalent as a duck is to a banana.

Yet Cliff Walsh just won the 2024 Free State with a 6 shot 45 acp and a 178PF, quite handily too.  We had 4 other Master Revolvers.  

[pskys2]

#3 & #4 are relevant but not particularly important to most of us.  #5 is the most salient point and I also doubt if adding Dots will help.  I've been in this game since 1978, I am an NROI RO and have shot Revolvers since it became a Division.  When Limited was created my first classifiers were shot with a 6" M28, magnum loads and speed loaders.

But I will be sending you a signature as I am not in favor of the change.  Yet I see the future of all handguns as being Optic sighted, or optic ready from the factory.

No matter I will continue to shoot Revolver Division with, or without a dot.

[Ice36]

47 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

I call into question 1 B as well,, Im not seeing 3k revolvers,, In fact some of the guys I talk with specifically shoot revolver because its cheaper.. no mags, no extended base pads, more tolerant reloads.  Trigger job is a hair harder than a typical plastic fantastic, but not more so than a 1911.

He didn't say 3k gun it was the set up needed to shoot the division, when you look at gun, holster, moons, moon holder, mooning tools, extender cylinder release and a basic trigger job that allows you to shoot factory ammo and brings the trigger pull from the factory 14+ lb to 8-9lb you are in the 2k to 3k price range. 

Also it is not uncommon to see ported barrels in SC and Icore open

[Joe4d]

40 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Yet Cliff Walsh just won the 2024 Free State with a 6 shot 45 acp and a 178PF, quite handily too.  We had 4 other Master Revolvers.  

and I think the guy that won Open ICORE at Rocky mountain was running a six shot with an old school tube style on  a rail mount and about 145 pf.. I was kinda surprised how many people on my squad were shooting over 140.. I was runnign 126 and was lowest one in my squad.

[Joe4d]

1 minute ago, Ice36 said:

He didn't say 3k gun it was the set up needed to shoot the division, when you look at gun, holster, moons, moon holder, mooning tools, extender cylinder release and a basic trigger job that allows you to shoot factory ammo and brings the trigger pull from the factory 14+ lb to 8-9lb you are in the 2k to 3k price range. 

Also it is not uncommon to see ported barrels in SC and Icore open

may not be uncommon, but it is far from universal,, and also doesnt matter a lick in those games.
I mean if USPSA is gonna add dots they could just as easily ad comps as its not gonna matter at minor in a revolver. 

 

[MikeBurgess]

I think the point about comps and ports is that while they dont do enough to matter the exclusion of them in USPSA would mean that anyone who does have ports or comps on their optic revo would not be able to use it in uspsa

[RangerMcFadden]

So, some clarification on my intent here. 
 

I wasn’t looking to relitigate dots on revos. That has been done to death in this forum. We all have our preferences and opinions pretty solidly formed.

 

What I hope this thread to be is a call to action that will provide more meaningful feedback to the board.

 

As such, this letter is written to persuade the board, not you my fellow shooter. The board cares about increasing participation, providing service to members via classifications, and (arguably) serving as the US branch as IPSC.

 

I believe this letter, while not exhaustively, lists reasons why allowing optics as the board envisions it, would run counter to their interests.

 

 

[RangerMcFadden]

6 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think the point about comps and ports is that while they dont do enough to matter the exclusion of them in USPSA would mean that anyone who does have ports or comps on their optic revo would not be able to use it in uspsa

You get a cookie.

[Joe4d]

47 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think the point about comps and ports is that while they dont do enough to matter the exclusion of them in USPSA would mean that anyone who does have ports or comps on their optic revo would not be able to use it in uspsa

you gotta change the rule to allow optic, no reason not to change it to allow comps and ports if the goal is to attract both those ICORE guys currently staying home from USPSA due to a no compensator rule.

[MikeBurgess]

38 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

you gotta change the rule to allow optic, no reason not to change it to allow comps and ports if the goal is to attract both those ICORE guys currently staying home from USPSA due to a no compensator rule.

For better or worse, that does not seem to be what the rules committee has proposed  so would not be the action taken at this time. 

[MWP]

4 hours ago, Joe4d said:

you gotta change the rule to allow optic, no reason not to change it to allow comps and ports if the goal is to attract both those ICORE guys currently staying home from USPSA due to a no compensator rule.

No icore open shooters aren’t shooting uspsa revolver because they can’t use their dots. 

[BritinUSA]

I wonder if IPSC has any plans to change revolver division rules.. 

 

In 2011 IPSC deleted Modified Division due to falling participation. I have to wonder what the participation numbers are worldwide for revolver and whether there is anything planned for the next General Assembly in South Africa in 2025.

 

I’m not saying they would delete it, but if numbers are down then they may consider some changes first to see if that brings numbers up.

 

Perhaps it might be beneficial for USPSA to wait until after that GA, so if changes are made then they could align with the worldwide body.

[louu]

On 9/18/2024 at 11:05 PM, RangerMcFadden said:

As this forum has been discussing, the USPSA board is toying with the notion of allowing optics in the revolver division. I recently wrote a letter to the board and this past weekend at USPSA nationals it was signed by all but 3 revolver participants. I would like to extend the offer to add your signature to this letter electronically before I sent it to the board. If you'd like to sign it, please message me directly with your name, USPSA number, and any credentials you'd like to ad (such as (C)RO status, classification, participation at USPSA nationals/area matches).

 

To: USPSA President Yee-Min Lin and USPSA Board Members

 

At the January 2024 board meeting a proposal was made as to whether optics would be allowed within the Revolver division followed up with a member survey in August. We, the undersigned, wished to bring our concerns directly to the board of directors that could not adequately expressed in the recent member survey.

 

We believe that the addition of optics to the Revolver division would be a detriment to USPSA.

 

While it is impossible to succinctly condense all the nuanced opinions and concerns that the undersigned have in one letter, we wish to share the following concerns:

 

(1) Allowing optics would add an additional barrier to entry and frustrate existing USPSA revolver shooters. We believe this would lower participation for both new shooters trying the division and for the seasoned revolver shooters forgoing major match(es) in favor of purchasing new optic(s).

• a. This is analogous to what happened when allowing 8 Minor, 6 Major guns become obsolete as soon as the rules were published. This frustrated many shooters who invested in putting together a specific gun and rig for one division. We feel adding optics would have a similar negative effect.

• b. A commonly cited complaint about getting into Revolver division is the cost of equipment. Revolver is sufficiently different from all other divisions that equipment from other divisions cannot be used. It is not uncommon to spend $2-3k on a competition ready iron sight set up. An optic would add to this barrier.

 

(2) Permitting optics within USPSA Revolver division would add a unique configuration not currently used in any other shooting sport. This could require existing revolver shooters to purchase an additional gun just to keep shooting revolver in USPSA. Currently you can shoot the same revolver in ICORE, Steel Challenge, and USPSA. Allowing optics would nullify that benefit as most revolver divisions using an optic in other sports allow a compensator/ports such as Steel Challenge’s OSR and ICORE’s Open divisions.

• a. In correspondence with this letter’s principal author, area 8 director Russell Fortney stated that the proposed rule would be “optional… similar to PCC”. The undersigned contend that if optics are permitted, they would be a de facto requirement much like Open and PCC divisions.

 

(3) Permitting optics within the Revolver division would move USPSA drastically away from IPSC rules. As USPSA national matches are a required avenue to attend IPSC World Shoots, the proposed addition of optics would require participants to either add an optic to win USPSA events only for the optic to be removed to compete in IPSC matches.

 

(4) Adding optics may result in all the current revolver classifiers to be invalidated. The only solution the undersigned can foresee is a complete “re-do” of all revolver classifier scores to ensure they are even remotely accurate.

 

(5) Revolver is unique with no close approximation to be found in other divisions. In no other division are gun handling skills as heavily weighted. The addition of optics dilutes what makes the division unique.

 

While the undersigned disagree with the proposed changes, we applaud the board’s consideration to increase revolver participation. The undersigned believe the formation of a revolver centric committee tasked with increasing revolver participation would be more impactful compared to a rule change or member survey.

 

Below each signature, is a brief qualification. We hope that these bona fides, in total, demonstrate to the board that the undersigned have the experience to offer an informed opinion and demonstrate an enthusiastic dedication to the Revolver division.

Great job, Please add me to the letter

Louis Scarborough FY84873 I just started revolver the end of last year and don't have enough to get classified yet. I shoot a different division every match, I don't shoot any of the optic divisions, I hate dots on pistols and I'm extremely tired of the constant rule changes. 

Edited 23 hours ago by louu

[Joe4d]

8 hours ago, MWP said:

No icore open shooters aren’t shooting uspsa revolver because they can’t use their dots. 

changing a rule in USPSA based on that assumption is laughable.
ICORE open shooters arnt shooting USPSA revolver because they dont want to shoot USPSA with a revolver. They either shoot it with another gun or dont shoot it.
Its the stage designs, not the equipment. 
I highly suspect there isnt an ICORE match that doesnt have USPSA match in the same or same general vicinity. 

If the goal of the change is retention or the current shooters want it, I can see that.
If the goal is to attract a bunch of ICORE shooters that dont shoot USPSA,, by the time you take out the ones that shoot USPSA with an Auto,, or that dont shoot due to stage design or other reasons,,  you will be left with both guys I mentioned above.

[MikeBurgess]

my real hope is that the BOD doesn't just look a the results of the people that responded to the survey. I would be willing to bet cash money that the vast majority of respondents have never or rarely ever shoot a revo in uspsa and would continue to not shoot revo if dots are allowed. 

 

Basically 

Hey there is a division you don't shoot with equipment you don't have, should we allow dots in it? Yes please!

 

The missing question.

Would you shoot it after this change? No way revos are dumb

[ZackJones]

17 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

For better or worse, that does not seem to be what the rules committee has proposed  so would not be the action taken at this time. 

 

Before the survey was posted I asked about adding additional questions for comps and barrel ports but we couldn't do it. The bylaws have very specific timelines for equipment rule changes. We can propose the comp / barrel ports change in 2025 for a 2026 implementation. That's what I plan to do for ISR in steel challenge. My rationale is that would allow a competitor to shot OSR where ports and comps are permitted and then shoot ISR with the same revolver simply by removing the optic. 

[revoman]

I currently shoot open in USPSA with my ICORE open revolver at local matches. I have asked if they would let me set up a couple of ICORE stages and they could even shoot it with whatever gun they have, but to no avail. 
It has been awhile since I shot in a USPSA match (besides local) with a revolver. I do have iron sighted revolvers in which I have competed in USPSA before and I had plans to go to Free State this year but a newborn grandson put the hiatus on that . Maybe someday he will become a revo shooter. 
I voted to have 8 shot and I have voted for optics. I believe there should be an option between the two and I also believe whoever is going to shoot will shoot and if by adding optics adds some shooters even if just a few that is a plus. If it does not then it is just another division that is available for those who want the choice. 
 

Me I vote for optics or open revolver as outlined in ICORE. 
 

Dean