Require Painting in Tier 1 Matches?

[RickT]

Our local week day matches don't allow painting.  It's not a cost issue since the 4 stage matches are only $5 for club members.  There is absolutely nothing at stake other than a)bragging rights if applicable and b)classification, but when the 11th gun comes up in Five to Go one or more of the targets can be absolutely black and depending up sun angle and background said target(s) can be nearly invisible.  I'd like to see a rule that requires,as a minimum, that targets be painted after every 4 shooters; wouldn't take much time and would provide every shooter in a squad a reasonably clean target.  Clubs would be free to skip the painting, but then couldn't upload their scores to SCSA.  Thoughts?

[shred]

Why should every other club match have to paint because of your issue?  Wouldn't it be easier for the match to say "paint every 4 shooters" themselves?

 

That said I like painting between shooters, but most don't want to bother and I'd rather have matches with no painting than no matches.

 

[HoboGuapo]

The matches in my area don't usually paint between shooters but we do when our squad changes stages. We also have a standing rule that if anyone feels like they want the targets painted before their turn, then they can request it. No sweat. That sounds like the best solution

[RickT]

6 minutes ago, HoboGuapo said:

The matches in my area don't usually paint between shooters but we do when our squad changes stages. We also have a standing rule that if anyone feels like they want the targets painted before their turn, then they can request it. No sweat. That sounds like the best solution

That would be a fine solution if the MD permitted, but that's not the case.  Paint on request would appear to address shred's concerns.  I believe the rule without exception for Tier 1 requires painting between shooters;  that might tend to stretch out matches a bit especially given the prevalence of 10 gun/5 shooter squads, but there should be a soft landing somewhere.

[blackss06]

I would bring your own paint and go paint your targets before you shoot and make everyone wait for you if you want to force the issue. A shooter should be able to request paint before they shoot for sure. 
 

That being said, 100% do not think it should be specified in the rules to be required. I shoot at a number of clubs that can’t keep up with paint enough to allow for painting between squads, much less any number of shooters on one squad. 

[Dr Mitch]

Agree with painting your own targets before you shoot.  No way to enforce an honor system based on application of paint at specified intervals at locations far away from civilization.

[joseywales]

It’s already in the rules 4.1.

We have a few clubs here that do the same. 
It does help speed the match along.

That’s the only positive thing I can say about it.

[Farmer]

I’d just do it myself. Maybe after a few others see how much easier it is to see it may catch on. Either that or they’ll all want you to go first. 

[Buzzdraw]

Looks like Rule 4.1 requires, even for Tier I, plate painting prior to each competitor's first run on Classifier stages.  For time reasons, normally the shooter will not paint his targets before he shoots.

 

Edited April 20 by Buzzdraw

[IHAVEGAS]

Locally it seems like there is a bit of a conflict between shooter's goals for steel challenge. Traditionally steel matches were relaxed and low key, 5 stages, enjoy shooting with the kids and grandparents, bring what you have. Currently steel is now taken seriously by many and those folks have different expectations. 

 

I don't know how common that transition/conflict is but it is something that we have been able to resolve with a little bit of communication and a little bit of tolerance. 

[Gregg K]

14 hours ago, RickT said:

Our local week day matches don't allow painting.  It's not a cost issue since the 4 stage matches are only $5 for club members. 

If they don't allow painting then it isn't a sanctioned match. As others have pointed out 4.1 covers this. You say it isn't a cost issue but I think that it is a factor. At $6 for a good can of paint and $1 fee to upload scores I don't see how they could do it for the $5 fee.

 

While most clubs do tend to ignore 4.1 if the shooters don't care and are willing to accept the calls of the RO, I have never heard of one that forbids painting.

[bigdawgbeav]

Allow me (and I hate when people pull the "its just a local match BS).  If you are not painting after every shooter you are not following the rules.  That's fine, but don't call your match a Steel Challenge Match and submit the scores.

[zzt]

Every club I shoot SCSA steel challenge at paints between EVERY shooter.  None allow a two gun shooter to shoot back to back (LI).  Nobody gripes.  Even on squads of 5 shooters/ten guns everything gets painted and things move along.

 

Non-SCSA matches like falling steel, outlaw and the like rarely paint at all.  Best case they paint for the next squad.

[Squirrel45]

29 minutes ago, bigdawgbeav said:

Allow me (and I hate when people pull the "its just a local match BS).  If you are not painting after every shooter you are not following the rules.  That's fine, but don't call your match a Steel Challenge Match and submit the scores.

Totally agree  

[texasdawg]

Also, without painting there is no way to dispute or prove an edge hit. The argument for an edge hit would not be disputable from a RO. So, there wouldn't be any misses,,,

At almost every match I shoot, I end up pointing out the edge painting to someone when they go blazing by just painting the faces of the steel plates.

[Squirrel45]

Exactly. We make it a point to hit the edges, especially the bottom. Iv shot with err umm "sponsored shooters" and the shots were way off, my coonhounds would have trouble tracking them. Yet they go out with the ro and see a bottom edge hit, ",opph that's my hit, yup right there". Just paint the plates. We go though 2 cans a stage in a match with 6 squads. Maybe charge $7 ? 

[Farmer]

I don’t care if it’s an afternoon outlaw fun shoot or a professional match, it should be run by the same rules. The way I see it if one or two people go on from a “fun” shoot to an actual competition they’ll be familiar with the routine. Let’s call it a training session. 

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, Farmer said:

I don’t care if it’s an afternoon outlaw fun shoot or a professional match, it should be run by the same rules.

 

I don't think any of the match rulebooks themselves are that strict. There may be some that don't reduce requirements for level 0 matches that I just don't know about. It is interesting that the new PCSL rules seem specifically intended to allow clubs to massage the rules according to local club preferences. https://www.ssusa.org/content/all-about-the-practical-competition-shooting-league/

 

15 hours ago, bigdawgbeav said:

Allow me (and I hate when people pull the "its just a local match BS).  If you are not painting after every shooter you are not following the rules.  That's fine, but don't call your match a Steel Challenge Match and submit the scores.

 

I'm not sure why not painting should prevent a score to be submitted, it is not seen as an advantage. I do completely agree that the way you run your match should agree with the way that you promote it. 

[Squirrel45]

If plates are not painted in between each competitor how could one dispute any miss? If a club chooses to run outlaw matches that's their call. However if it's a sanctioned match they need paint. It would be the equivalent of not taping after a uspsa, icore etc string. 

[joseywales]

The not painting between shooters used to really really bother me.

However, when several of us go out to practice, we NEVER paint between shooters. We paint when we change the stage, and we switch up who shoots first so each of us gets clean plates a few times. And if I practice alone, I NEVER paint.  Kinda got “used to” shooting dirty plates.

 

So now, when I’m at one of the “dirty plate” matches I will either volunteer to shoot first every stage and/or treat it like another of our practice sessions with dirty plates. Clean plates or dirty plates - it’s not the differentiator in my performance…I still have fun…but clean plates are MORE fun.

And like Shred, I would rather have matches that paint between squads vs no matches at all.

[IHAVEGAS]

40 minutes ago, Squirrel45 said:

If plates are not painted in between each competitor how could one dispute any miss? 

At a lot of matches no one cares enough to dispute a questionable call. Agree that if the purpose of your match is to satisfy the folks that take steel seriously rather than those who see it as a low key introduction to the shooting sports and just practice/socialization then you paint. 
 

[RickT]

Painting between shooters (or guns) is obviously not a requirement since clubs are allowed to submit scores even if they don't follow this rule.  I'd be OK with modifying the rule for local matches to leave following this rule at the the MD's discretion provided the rule was modified to give competitors the right to paint; the match could require shooters to provide their own paint in this case - no big deal.  The rule change would have to make it clear that matches which don't allow this will be considered unsanctioned.

 

[Hoops]

Painting is a requirement.  It bothers me when distinctions are made between competitive shooters and “fun” shooters.  SCSA is a competitive sport.  A simple concept but very challenging when advancing thru classifications.  Only hits or punitive misses.

 

Many of us (SCSA shooters) invest thousands of dollars in equipment and ammo so yes, we want paint and it’s required and expected if I drive to an an official match.  
 

The only reason painting is an issue are the people that don’t think they should paint.  At our matches we call for painters.  It is also part of shooters meeting before every match.  We also will talk to those that don’t.  We also make sure the on-deck shooter is ready to go.  If the on deck shooter doesn’t want paint he / she shouts out no-paint after range is clear called out….and accepts the risk of how misses are called.

 

it’s interesting that our usual squad usually pushes the squad ahead of us….and yet we paint between shooters.  Are we competitive …yes.  Do we joke and have fun….yes.  Go figure.

[Dr. Phil]

It's interesting that some clubs/shooters use the price of the paint as an excuse for not following the rules. We get the same thing sometimes. Or clubs buy the .99/can garbage at the box stores, which don't cover.

At the matches I ran we used the $7/can paint. Covers in 1 shot, quick and easy. We went to the local hardware store, explained that we would use something in the 200 cans per year (or more) and he gave us a discount. The cans were now $2.50/can. All it takes is a bit of work.

The time it takes 2 or 3 painters is minimal, as the on deck shooter is getting ready anyway.

As stated, if you don't follow the rules, don't send in the scores. Be fair to the clubs which do it right.

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

 It bothers me when distinctions are made between competitive shooters and “fun” shooters.  SCSA is a competitive sport.

 

Folks have been getting together and having fun at outlaw steel matches for quite a few years, it is not like SCSA invented steel matches at most clubs or that the clubs need SCSA to continue. There is room for those who think of SCSA as a real sport and more power to them, but I don't know of a reason why the "fun"shooters can't also be reasonably accommodated and I tend to think the outlaw matches might be a lot more important in the big picture. There is a lot to be said for a low key competitive ish match that gives the kids a good introduction to shooting in a controlled environment and allows the casual shooters a bit of practice and a bit of socialization.