392heminut Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Something that came up in a conversation a few days ago. Have retreat stages always been allowed in USPSA? I seem to think that they were either not allowed or highly discouraged back in the early days but at my age my mind does weird things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 They have been allowed at least since 1999 (that's as far back as I go) but I know when I took my cro class in the portion on stage design the instructor discouraged them due to the potential issues and difficulty of ROing them.... I know in the last 10 years they have become far more common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Since at least 1992 IME. They were not common but allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 (edited) 24 minutes ago, caspian guy said: I know in the last 10 years they have become far more common. Apparently so! I believe 12 of the 14 stages at the Western States Single Stack Classic were retreat stages! Partly how this conversation came up. Edited February 28 by 392heminut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 It's hard to ban a concept such as "retreating" in a sport that is by nature freestyle (principles of USPSA, item 8). I doubt it has ever been "banned," but I might be wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louu Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 9 hours ago, 392heminut said: Apparently so! I believe 12 of the 14 stages at the Western States Single Stack Classic were retreat stages! Partly how this conversation came up. I would have asked for my money back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I remember retreat stages back to at least '94. They were more common in higher level matches than in club matches even then. Part of the reluctance by instructors in recommending the use of such designs (in my opinion) is that at the local level the experience levels of both the shooters and the ROs could lead to an unacceptable level of risk due to course design. I've come to a limited agreement with this. From a risk management point of view I think retreat stages at club matches should be limited and simple. As you go up on level of match it can become more sophisticated. By the time you get to level 3 (or higher, internationally) just about anything goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 5 hours ago, louu said: I would have asked for my money back It was still a fun match! I'm definitely shooting it again next year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 Back in the late 90's/early 2000's I shot a lot of level II matches and I don't recall ever shooting a retreat stage. I stopped shooting for several years (my youngest son's sports events took priority) and when I started back around 2011 it seemed like everybody was running retreat stages! This Single Stack match took the cake though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 i guess ive never really paid much attention to whether a stage involves retreating or not, but it seems excessive to have 12 of 14 stages at a match be retreats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 7 hours ago, louu said: I would have asked for my money back why I have a rule of seeing stages before paying much.. That being said,,, we talking a few steps back ? or a flat out stick gun over your shoulder and run up range ? The latter I may have seen a handful combined in 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 6 hours ago, Joe4d said: why I have a rule of seeing stages before paying much.. That being said,,, we talking a few steps back ? or a flat out stick gun over your shoulder and run up range ? The latter I may have seen a handful combined in 30 years. There were some of both at that match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Yes been at this since 1978. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 On 2/28/2024 at 2:46 PM, Joe4d said: why I have a rule of seeing stages before paying much.. That being said,,, we talking a few steps back ? or a flat out stick gun over your shoulder and run up range ? The latter I may have seen a handful combined in 30 years. So you never shoot any matches with pre registration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 It can be a trap for inexperienced shooters, our latest recruit was disqualified for leading the way out of a tight spot muzzle first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 23 hours ago, waktasz said: So you never shoot any matches with pre registration? not if they require large investment of time or money ,, They want me to pay in advance,, well I want to see what I am paying for in advance. Not to mention, I will wait until I can get an idea of the weather.. I mean a small local with a 20-30 entry fee I will go once and check it out.. Nowadays though you can check out some dude posting videos of previous matches... One south of me had a stage with a good 50 yards of movement,,, noped right out of those guys.. Revolver match in AZ had people climbing a damn wall. Ida been pissed. Wouldnt even dream of going to that one without seeing stages ahead of time.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 I haven't seen many level2 or above matches where you can wait until stage diagrams are posted, get close enough in time to see the weather report and be able to register and pay for the match if they still have openings. Many sell out very quickly and most of the rest also sell out way before you can get the stages and weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 36 minutes ago, MHicks said: I haven't seen many level2 or above matches where you can wait until stage diagrams are posted, get close enough in time to see the weather report and be able to register and pay for the match if they still have openings. Many sell out very quickly and most of the rest also sell out way before you can get the stages and weather. Quite literally one of the main reasons I'm no longer very interested in shooting level 2 matches. While I wouldn't be worried about scoping out match diagrams before the match, as I would have already watched videos from last year's match to have an idea of what might be going on, I have decided shooting in the rain sucks. So yes I agree you do generally have to sign up way early if you wanted to a match, and that's the main reason that I don't. Anymore I have no interest in paying a considerable amount of money for match fees, hotels, ammo, take time off work, etc. to shoot in the rain. It's supposed to be fun along with challenging and shooting in the rain it's not fun LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 49 minutes ago, MHicks said: I haven't seen many level2 or above matches where you can wait until stage diagrams are posted, get close enough in time to see the weather report and be able to register and pay for the match if they still have openings. Many sell out very quickly and most of the rest also sell out way before you can get the stages and weather. 9 minutes ago, RJH said: Quite literally one of the main reasons I'm no longer very interested in shooting level 2 matches. While I wouldn't be worried about scoping out match diagrams before the match, as I would have already watched videos from last year's match to have an idea of what might be going on, I have decided shooting in the rain sucks. So yes I agree you do generally have to sign up way early if you wanted to a match, and that's the main reason that I don't. Anymore I have no interest in paying a considerable amount of money for match fees, hotels, ammo, take time off work, etc. to shoot in the rain. It's supposed to be fun along with challenging and shooting in the rain it's not fun LOL Ditto,,, too bad so sad, if they are selling out in advance, good for them. They wont miss me. and I am fine with that. But from what I am reading USPSA is so jacked up they cant fill Nationals... ICore ? is a small sport and generally has plenty of room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 I'll skip the local matches when it's too cold, windy or rainy. I've only had a couple of bigger matches with bad weather. Most of them are held during the better weather months. I've never been to nationals. I like going to a few level 2 matches a year. Turning 71 next month, I'm retired so work isn't a problem. Also I figure that I'll go because I'm still able to do it and at any time that could change for me. It's a little vacation. I have fun, just a B shooter. I enjoy shooting with new people and see a lot of the regulars there too. I can afford it and my wife is glad I've got a hobby that keeps me busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 7 hours ago, RJH said: Quite literally one of the main reasons I'm no longer very interested in shooting level 2 matches. While I wouldn't be worried about scoping out match diagrams before the match, as I would have already watched videos from last year's match to have an idea of what might be going on, I have decided shooting in the rain sucks. So yes I agree you do generally have to sign up way early if you wanted to a match, and that's the main reason that I don't. Anymore I have no interest in paying a considerable amount of money for match fees, hotels, ammo, take time off work, etc. to shoot in the rain. It's supposed to be fun along with challenging and shooting in the rain it's not fun LOL Level 2 IPSC matches is really what I mostly do, and not all that many of those in a year to be honest. It happens that I get a stage where I have no clue how to cope with it. Something that I have never practised. Oh well, I'll never win anything anyway, unless there's very few participants in my Division/Category It becomes a learning experience. Isn't running into some new challenge one of the points, and joys, of going to a match? Something different from what you are comfortable with shooting on your own at the "home" range? ----------------------- Retreating, and even just moving sideways, can be tough for newbies. We don't allow total newbies to compete or even practise on their own before training them a bit. The official curricilum does not include retreating. When I run a newbie session, I make a point of at least saying something about retreating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 7 hours ago, perttime said: Level 2 IPSC matches is really what I mostly do, and not all that many of those in a year to be honest. It happens that I get a stage where I have no clue how to cope with it. Something that I have never practised. Oh well, I'll never win anything anyway, unless there's very few participants in my Division/Category It becomes a learning experience. Isn't running into some new challenge one of the points, and joys, of going to a match? Something different from what you are comfortable with shooting on your own at the "home" range? ----------------------- Retreating, and even just moving sideways, can be tough for newbies. We don't allow total newbies to compete or even practise on their own before training them a bit. The official curricilum does not include retreating. When I run a newbie session, I make a point of at least saying something about retreating. Maybe I wasn't clear, the fun and challenging is the reason I like level 2 matches and like to go to them. Shooting in the rain is what I am not interested in and since I can't forecast the weather several months out it means I probably won't be shooting level 2 matches anymore. It is too big an investment for me to risk getting locked into shooting in crappy weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 9 hours ago, perttime said: Isn't running into some new SHOOTING challenge one of the points, and joys, of going to a match? Something different from what you are comfortable with shooting on your own at the "home" range ? THere fixed it.. Yes I enjoy shooting challenges, drop turners, clamshells, slots in cover, half targets, some long range shots , backing up, etc. all good. However alot of matches have too many non shooting challenges,, Ie excessive runs to shoot point blank targets, discriminatory ports, I mean when over half your field is hitting 90% of available points you dont have a shooting challenge. I mean people come running to look when a mike or D is called out. Thats the game not asking for change,, I just chose to do what I enjoy... which includes what RJJH said.. I dont want to shoot in nasty weather. But back on topic There is a distance point of retreating where shooters will find it advantageous to put gun over shoulder and run up range, vs stay faciing and pointing down range and step backwards.. and IMO that distance is at a point where your good stage changes from a shooting challenge to a bad DQ trap sprint track skills challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 3 hours ago, Joe4d said: There is a distance point of retreating where shooters will find it advantageous to put gun over shoulder and run up range, vs stay faciing and pointing down range and step backwards.. and IMO that distance is at a point where your good stage changes from a shooting challenge to a bad DQ trap sprint track skills challenge. Nailed it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted March 8 Share Posted March 8 3 hours ago, Joe4d said: ... However alot of matches have too many non shooting challenges,, Ie excessive runs to shoot point blank targets, discriminatory ports, I mean when over half your field is hitting 90% of available points you dont have a shooting challenge. ... There is a distance point of retreating where shooters will find it advantageous to put gun over shoulder and run up range, vs stay faciing and pointing down range and step backwards.. and IMO that distance is at a point where your good stage changes from a shooting challenge to a bad DQ trap sprint track skills challenge. Sounds like bad stage design. Can't quite agree that running uprange a number of steps is a DQ trap. It is just something that you need to think about and practise a little. Depending on stage, I might prefer to leave my gun hand behind me. Like when I want to move towards my weak hand side of the stage, during or after the retreat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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