Production mag capacity

[shred]

32 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

Issue there is open guns are built the way they are to handle major PF and comps/popple holes won't be effective with minor ammo.  My open guns don't run reliably on minor ammo and I am already only running 7lb recoil springs.  

No rule says you have to shoot 125.1 PF.  Most Open shooters would probably load to 150-160 PF with similar powder and a lighter bullet and drive on with basically no change to the downsides of shooting Open (noisy, custom loads and guns).  Eventually people would have lighter top ends made up, but that wouldn't change things much.

 

[aandabooks]

2 hours ago, shred said:

No rule says you have to shoot 125.1 PF.  Most Open shooters would probably load to 150-160 PF with similar powder and a lighter bullet and drive on with basically no change to the downsides of shooting Open (noisy, custom loads and guns).  Eventually people would have lighter top ends made up, but that wouldn't change things much.

 

True.  I like shooting major and the points advantage that it gives.  Not everything in this sport needs to go to minor.  The last 3 divisions that have been introduced have all been minor only.  Leave the option of major in open, limited, SS, revo and Lim 10.  

[RJH]

13 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

To the extent that the growth has been to the detriment of all other divisions, yes, it was a mistake. It should have been Production Optics as it was originally intended to be.

 

FYI: Production also had a stand-alone Nationals.

 

 

This continues to be one of the worst takes on this subject. 

 

Carryops is a hyper competitive, highly popular division that draws both the best shooters and the average Joes. No reason make the most popular division s#!tty so worse divisions (according to popular opinion) will have a few more shooters. 

 

Having all the shooters in two or three divisions is way more interesting than having them spread out over 9

 

 

[shred]

Yeah, but don't confuse 'most popular' with 'most-perfect'.  Too many people are afraid to touch it at all because 'most popular', yet what are the odds USPSA hit it absolutely perfectly out of the park?

 

 

[RJH]

21 minutes ago, shred said:

Yeah, but don't confuse 'most popular' with 'most-perfect'.  Too many people are afraid to touch it at all because 'most popular', yet what are the odds USPSA hit it absolutely perfectly out of the park?

 

 

 

Most perfect is obviously limited optics

 

And limited optics will be most popular before long. Carry-ops is most popular right now because it has a DOT and minor and ho cap. You just have to shoot a s***** gun but, people do it for the dot and minor. Now limited optics removes the s***** gun barrier and the perfect division has been born

 

None of that helps low cap divisions suck less though  

And I've shot a lot of single stack over the years, so I know of which I speak LOL

Edited December 23, 2023 by RJH

[terrydoc]

21 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Participation was growing, the division was still provisional and had been running for just one full season when the changes were made. 
 

I think IPSC introduced ProdOptics in 2018, taking effect as provisional in 2019. The division was formerly adopted in 2022, so they had nearly 3 full years of data to make the determination on its future.

 

IPSC’s ProdOptics has been a huge success with a very restricted rule-set and 15 round capacity. IPSC was right, USPSA was wrong.

I don't know about the rest of the world but the introduction of IPSC PDO/Lite was severely interrupted by covid lockdowns and such nonsense in Australia, so our participation was a bit of a 'false' start here, in fact once the rule set was published I'm pretty sure the PDOL started gaining rapidly on the PDO. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by terrydoc

[llamasabound]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

This continues to be one of the worst takes on this subject. 

 

Carryops is a hyper competitive, highly popular division that draws both the best shooters and the average Joes. No reason make the most popular division s#!tty so worse divisions (according to popular opinion) will have a few more shooters. 

 

Having all the shooters in two or three divisions is way more interesting than having them spread out over 9

 

 

thank you. I’ve been struggling to come up with an analogy to counteract this line of thinking, something about a owning a Volvo station wagon, a Ford Pinto, and a BMW M series, and planning to shred the upholstery on the BMW, over-inflate the tires, and slap a governor on it, so that you will drive your Pinto more.

[ddc]

13 minutes ago, llamasabound said:

thank you. I’ve been struggling to come up with an analogy to counteract this line of thinking, something about a owning a Volvo station wagon, a Ford Pinto, and a BMW M series, and planning to shred the upholstery on the BMW, over-inflate the tires, and slap a governor on it, so that you will drive your Pinto more.

 

That works for me.

[motosapiens]

21 hours ago, Sniperboy said:

 

LO will definitely encroach on OPEN very soon when people decide major PF is no longer in style

people who don’t like gripping strong enough to shoot major sometimes think that everyone feels the same. there are still a lot of us out there that prefer real motorcycles over scooters, and margaritas on the rocks over white claw.  I would rather shoot grown-up handguns rather than wimpy versions designed for girls and poofs to be able to pass their LE quals. as my wife sez “minor sucks”.

[Sniperboy]

Just making an observation about how newer shooters at least in our ranges gravitate towards CO and LO instead of open with rare exception.  Those who shoot open are typically those who already invested too much sunk cost in their gun and reloading equipment.  At least in my impression.

 

You do make a valid argument which kind of proves the point of low cap advocates.  Almost to a T.  "...sometimes think that everyone feels the same" - which is astute.

People who shoot major like it, almost religiously.  Those who like low cap and like to reload repeatedly are the same.

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, Sniperboy said:

Just making an observation about how newer shooters at least in our ranges gravitate towards CO and LO instead of open with rare exception.  Those who shoot open are typically those who already invested too much sunk cost in their gun and reloading equipment.  At least in my impression.

 

You do make a valid argument which kind of proves the point of low cap advocates.  Almost to a T.  "...sometimes think that everyone feels the same" - which is astute.

People who shoot major like it, almost religiously.  Those who like low cap and like to reload repeatedly are the same.

thats because they can load their factory guns to capacity with off the shelf so cheap it isnt worth reloading, 9mm ammo and not have an equipment/power factor disadvantage..
If production had dropped the 10 round thing when the ban sunset and went to a box or length rule,, thats what they would be shooting.  I think the 15 round thing is a half measure.  Either a box gun must fit in with magazine,, or go with a length rule,, 126, 130 , 140..

 

[lroy]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

people who don’t like gripping strong enough to shoot major sometimes think that everyone feels the same. there are still a lot of us out there that prefer real motorcycles over scooters, and margaritas on the rocks over white claw.  I would rather shoot grown-up handguns rather than wimpy versions designed for girls and poofs to be able to pass their LE quals. as my wife sez “minor sucks”.

 

Lol. The argument for major always comes down to being more manly.

 

Pretty goofy.

[IHAVEGAS]

46 minutes ago, lroy said:

Lol. The argument for major always comes down to being more manly.

 

And the argument for minor always comes down to being more womanly? 

 

I think people like what they like. The major rounds are fun just because they are, if you are inclined that way, but I know more folks who shoot major because of the different nature of the speed/power game than any other reason. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, lroy said:

 

Lol. The argument for major always comes down to being more manly.

 

Pretty goofy.

its pretty unmanly to want to take major away from people who enjoy it.

 

if you don’t like major, don’t shoot it. problem solved.

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, Sniperboy said:

Just making an observation about how newer shooters at least in our ranges gravitate towards CO and LO instead of open with rare exception.  Those who shoot open are typically those who already invested too much sunk cost in their gun and reloading equipment.  At least in my impression.

 

 

around here we have seen quite a few folks move to open in the last couple years. They started in CO and just naturally took the next step.

[shred]

This.  Sometimes it's people chasing HOA, sometimes they just want to see what Major PF offers... not in terms of recoil but in terms of points and stage strategies like shooting on the move that are far more likely to pay off.

 

[RJH]

I tried shooting major once and it broke my wrist. I could barely hold my latte with extra soy. Idk how y'all take the punishment of massive recoil for a whole match

[Dr Mitch]

On 12/24/2023 at 5:38 AM, Joe4d said:

thats because they can load their factory guns to capacity with off the shelf so cheap it isnt worth reloading, 9mm ammo and not have an equipment/power factor disadvantage..
If production had dropped the 10 round thing when the ban sunset and went to a box or length rule,, thats what they would be shooting.  I think the 15 round thing is a half measure.  Either a box gun must fit in with magazine,, or go with a length rule,, 126, 130 , 140..

 

100%.  Load mags up and shoot.  May the best mass-produced gun win.  Capacity limitations are nonsense these days.  
 

But according to participation, so are iron sighted guns.

 

Also, major power factor is the best power factor. Woot woot!  Merry Christmas.

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, Dr Mitch said:

 

But according to participation, so are iron sighted guns.

 

Only because there is no iron sighted division that makes sense for the game  or matches what people want.. CO was dead in the water before they went to 140mm mags. Yeh people like optics, but the 140 mag, 9mm ammo, and reasonable off the shelf guns drove growth... Woulda seen same growth without the optic. 

 

[Dr Mitch]

Agreed