Production mag capacity

[herky]

What is the current status of the production mag capacity question?

 

Thanks

[Runswithwood1]

Not sure of current status but took a uspsa survey a few days ago and voted yes on 15 for production. I think its gonna be one of the ways to keep iron sights relevant in uspsa. 

[DKorn]

Survey is still ongoing. I looked to try to find the end date but couldn’t see it posted anywhere. 
 

Once the survey ends, the BOD will vote on it at their next meeting and then, if approved, it will take effect January 31 2024. 

[Sarge]

15 hours ago, herky said:

What is the current status of the production mag capacity question?

 

Thanks

Hi Mike, long time no see! From what I’m hearing at matches production will go to 15 rounds.

[IHAVEGAS]

15 hours ago, herky said:

What is the current status of the production mag capacity question?

 

Going the way of the world I guess, forget about hitting the reloads and the more challenging stage planning & the greater need to avoid make up shots. If you can run fast the rest is more of a participation trophy.

 

(Yes I know I'm old and crabby about it)

[rhett45acp]

I am looking forward to this change.  15 rounds is not going to be a cake walk.  You will still be doing more reloads than 140mm folks.  32 round field course is going still require 2 reloads.  Toss some steel in there and maybe more.  I see a lot of 14 /10 /8 type scenarios. 

 

IMHO this change is WAY overdue.  

[perttime]

If you want locap, you still have Revolver and IPSC Classic / USPSA Single Stack (which I quite enjoy).

 

I don't see IPSC Production shooters complaining about 15 in the magazine, or 15+1 in the chamber at the Beep. I do see less experienced guys go to slide lock, and do panic reloads, with that capacity ...

[Racinready300ex]

On 10/23/2023 at 6:46 PM, herky said:

What is the current status of the production mag capacity question?

 

Thanks

 

There was another survey posted in Aug. I think, it's still up. They may of over did the survey's as people seem to think they've already taken the survey and didn't realize this is a new one. The new on is just 15 rounds yes or no. 

 

I think the BOD has to leave the idea up for feed back for a certain amount of time before they vote. They may have a meeting this week, so they could have voted on it already. If not I'd expect them to do it pretty soon.

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

I don’t mind production going to 15, mainly because I really don’t think it will change stage planning.  It will still for the most part be a shoot one array and reload while moving to the next.   Stage designs typically have at least 8 shots from one location.  If I start with 15 plus one in the pipe why risk a standing reload when I can load on the move.    I definitely don’t think it’s a “game changer” 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

I don’t mind production going to 15, mainly because I really don’t think it will change stage planning.  It will still for the most part be a shoot one array and reload while moving to the next.   Stage designs typically have at least 8 shots from one location.  If I start with 15 plus one in the pipe why risk a standing reload when I can load on the move.    I definitely don’t think it’s a “game changer” 

 

Kind of depends if you're club just does 8 here 8 there stage designs, you're right probably wont change anything for you. 

 

Also, those stages are pretty lame anyway. 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Kind of depends if you're club just does 8 here 8 there stage designs, you're right probably wont change anything for you. 

 

Also, those stages are pretty lame anyway. 

I shoot a lot of different locals and at any of those matches I don’t see it making a difference. Stage designs tend to vary from club to club.  

[ddc]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Kind of depends if you're club just does 8 here 8 there stage designs, you're right probably wont change anything for you. 

 

Also, those stages are pretty lame anyway. 

 

Yeah that would suck. You still have to do the same stage plan as for 10. You still need the same number of mags on your belt. The only difference is you leave a lot more ammo on the ground.

[shred]

These days the advantage comes from the fig-leaf lip service to 1.2.1's "8 rounds per" rule.   

 

People (and maybe even NROI) seem to think a random barrel stack or edge-on wall 10 yards downrange somewhere in a spread of six or eight targets that can all be shot from one spot is enough to constitute a different 'view'.

 

Back when we had a lot of production shooters setting up, that wasn't so much of a thing.  These days, few care except the PD and SS people (Revo shooters are just stoic about the whole thing).

 

[BritinUSA]

Back in the day, a 'different view' meant moving to a different location, not just leaning.

[shred]

Lean, schmean.  More than once someone has claimed something like this is legal per 1.2.1 because the pointless barrel stack that hides nothing makes two different 'view's.

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, shred said:

These days the advantage comes from the fig-leaf lip service to 1.2.1's "8 rounds per" rule.   

 

People (and maybe even NROI) seem to think a random barrel stack or edge-on wall 10 yards downrange somewhere in a spread of six or eight targets that can all be shot from one spot is enough to constitute a different 'view'.

 

Back when we had a lot of production shooters setting up, that wasn't so much of a thing.  These days, few care except the PD and SS people (Revo shooters are just stoic about the whole thing).

 

 

You're right, what I don't get is why it takes low cap shooters to figure it out. Standing in one place blasting is boring, so are the stages where you basically walk through the whole stage with your gun up the whole time just shooting. 

 

Meh. I guess I'm weird. That stuff is lame. 

[BritinUSA]

L1 Stage Design can make or break division participation.

 

Sadly, too often the goal is high round-count and not high-challenge. The core objective of the sport is to measure/improve gun-handling skills, something that has become lost over the years. 

[motosapiens]

nobody likes lo-cap regardless. Our local matches very rarely have stupid stage designs like those mentioned above, and the most recent example i can think of was stolen from a major match which had a stupid stage design (unfortunate, imho). But even with good stages that are friendly to production and even pretty friendly to SS we get like 1 or 2 people that shoot those divisions.

 

even with 24 rounds in the gun, it's funner to shoot stages that break up into 5's, 6's, 7's and 8's, with the occasional 2-3. when we have a stage that allows you to shoot 10-12 from one spot, its generally not an advantage because many of those same targets are available from some other spot where everyone has to go anyway.

 

Anyway, 15 might make a difference. It would definitely reduce the reloads on our stages because we almost NEVER see 8-8-8-8 nonsense.

[Sniperboy]

I suppose only time will tell.

Changing production to 15 rounds will either:

a) Attract ALL the guys who were just champing at the bit to shoot production but really wanted more than 10 rounds.

b) Absolutely alienate those who remain in Production and put the final nail on this division.

 

[ddc]

6 hours ago, Sniperboy said:

I suppose only time will tell.

Changing production to 15 rounds will either:

a) Attract ALL the guys who were just champing at the bit to shoot production but really wanted more than 10 rounds.

b) Absolutely alienate those who remain in Production and put the final nail on this division.

 

 

It won't be either/or.

 

Some of the "a" guys will come. Some of the "b" guys will go.

 

I'd guess a net positive move towards Prod with more "a" guys coming than "b" guys going but I don't think it will really change much.

 

[Dr Mitch]

I think it is too late for an increase in capacity to make a significant impact in Production.  Production will probably become single-stack-esque in that an above average quantity of shooters will gear up to shoot it once a year for a national championship, with the number of shooters dependent upon how many national championship divisions are crammed into one match.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

Survey results are up, looks like they published them Sept 1. So even though the survey still looks active it's not. They could really do a better job of letting people know what's going on. I guess you have to comb over the web page regularly and look for changes.

 

Anyway link below

 

https://uspsa.org/surveys/results/2023-prod-cap

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Survey results are up, looks like they published them Sept 1. So even though the survey still looks active it's not. They could really do a better job of letting people know what's going on. I guess you have to comb over the web page regularly and look for changes.

 

Anyway link below

 

https://uspsa.org/surveys/results/2023-prod-cap

Didn’t they do two different surveys?  I was sent an email about one that had several questions about production and then just recently I had another one sent to me that was just one question.  

[Racinready300ex]

38 minutes ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Didn’t they do two different surveys?  I was sent an email about one that had several questions about production and then just recently I had another one sent to me that was just one question.  

 

Yeah, so the way it seems there was one survey that had a bunch of questions. Those results must of showed going to 15 was most popular I guess. So they did a second survey that was basically just "change to 15 yes or no"

 

I think a lot of people thought they had already answered the survey when they were thinking about the 1st one not realizing there was a new one. I know when I told my friends about the 2nd survey they were all like "old news, where have you been" even the that survey had just posted earlier the same day. I imagine they never bothered to vote. 

[Sniperboy]

The way the production questions were presented leads me to believe that the Board already made the decision to increase capacity, the only question was by how much and the second survey was simply to confirm that there would not be pushback from the general populace.

 

If I may - if one actually cared about increasing or maintaining participation in Production then these questions would have been more logical:

 

1.  Do you shoot Production regularly?  Yes/No.  (Undecided new members and those who have switched to CO answer "No".)

2.  If No, then will a 15 round capacity entice you shoot Production regularly, or make you come back to Production?

3.  If Yes, should capacity be increased to 15?

4.  Bonus question:  Should single action only pistols be allowed in Production?  (Without eliminating Single Stack division).

 

But then again, we've been beating this dead horse since they allowed external modifications in Production.

Yet another example of a specialized group forced to change in the spirit of inclusivity, only to be watered down and left a bloody husk that loses purpose.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Sniperboy