Hi cap iron sight minor guns division, what's it going to look like?

[RJH]

I'm beginning to believe that there's going to be a high cap iron sight minor division. Whether that just shakes out as production 15, or there is some other version of limited that still sticks with 140s and minor ammo I am not sure. What are y'all think he's going to happen?

 

I feel like production 15 will be the end result, because I'm not sure there's enough want for Iron sights divisions in general to warrant more than that. But, with the proliferation of Sao minor guns, at some point having a version of limited that was minor only would not surprise me.

 

Thoughts?

[truespode]

I think if they separate Limited into two divisions Limited Major would get less people than Revolver and LM will fight it out with Prod 15 for participation 

[broadside72]

just shoot limited with minor loads and get alphas

[IVC]

There is already a hi-cap minor iron sights. The Limited Division. 

[rowdyb]

Prod 15.

Keep Lim a mix of min and maj 

[RJH]

Everybody please note, I'm not saying that limited should definitely be changed or anything like that.

What I am saying is that major calibers and iron sights are dying.

 

There is no way to save major calibers and iron sight divisions, there however might be a way to save Ironsight divisions that allow minor calibers to compete without a scoring disadvantage, I'm not positive that will work either though. 

 

Anybody that thinks I'm wrong, look at handgun Nationals match breakdown. First, they couldn't fill the match with five iron sight divisions combined. Second, a division that has been around for 5 months has almost as many competitors as limited that has been around for 30ish years, and more than any of the other divisions.

 

USPSA does not have a division where a high cap, iron sight, minor gun can compete at no disadvantage. It probably needs at least one, maybe that is just production 15

 

But, burying your head in the sand and saying just shoot minor in limited is kind of dumb. As long as you have to have major in limited to be competitive limited is going to die. I don't know if a minor only limited division would flourish or not, but limited as it is now is done

 

So I guess maybe I am saying limited division should be changed, at least if you want to have a chance of having more than five guys to shoot against at majors in limited division

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by RJH

[Joe4d]

22 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Prod 15.

Keep Lim a mix of min and maj 

I really dont see the point of it any longer... was really no point to it after the wide body 45's came out.
Minor/ major  balanced out scoring between 13 shot minor guns the world shot and 9 shot  1911's Americans did.  Sorta like 10/8 does in SS although for the life of me have no idea why they didnt just mandate 45 acp for SS.
with that big a percent  difference in capacity and the lower round count, and more accuracy parts of the game it made sense and worked..
Once there were high capacity major guns, it stopped being worth while.  With the much smaller capacity difference, 8 shot max per position, and  higher round count less accuracy driven stages, there isnt enough advantage to minor to make up the lost points and pretty much anyone sound with a bit of training can handle 40 major with a common steel limited gun without much time lost to recoil.. Soo everyone had to shoot major to be competitive... At that point if everyone has to shoot the same power factor , why have 2 of them in one division.. Make it all major like SS should be, or make it all minor, like most other divisions should be.

 

[rowdyb]

The "new" high cap, minor only, iron sights division you feel might be coming down the pipeline is prod 15. 

 

And yeah at this point I don't really care if divisions turned into separate ones of maj and min to the exclusion of the other. 

 

Well,  a sense of history and nostalgia...

[Braxton1]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

just shoot limited with minor loads and get alphas

 

What he said....

 

Let Prod-15 play with pretty stock DA/Striker guns.  Limited can still be the realm of the 2011 or Glocks with long mags.

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Braxton1 said:

 

What he said....

 

Let Prod-15 play with pretty stock DA/Striker guns.  Limited can still be the realm of the 2011 or Glocks with long mags.

 

Playing in limited with a minor gun is dumb and everybody knows it. (Yes, I know Nils won nationals with a minor gun. But everybody who is not pushing an agenda knows that was an anomaly)

 

Limited division is dead as long as major is allowed. 

 

None of this is rocket surgery

 

I do not know if having a minor only limited division would help iron sight divisions or not, but limited major is done. I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to understand this

 

 

[whan]

Speaking for what is most likely to happen, it's definitely going to be Prod 15. The fact that USPSA sent out those surveys points to that IMO. I also happen to agree with Prod 15 as a concept as well, better matching IPSC. I've mentioned before but would also like to see CO become 15 rounds instead of 140mm too, otherwise it's redundant with LO (which I'd bet good money becomes a permanent division without really any changes from provisional)

 

The other part of it is that Prod 10 was originally developed during the federal AWB and mag limit. That's gone now, and if excluding that factor it seems 15 is probably the logical choice, hence why IPSC went that way. On a side note, I do think that in a few years, the SCOTUS is going to overturn nationwide mag cap limits. For CA, there have been some recent developments that will push it there...

[Matt1911]

47 minutes ago, whan said:

Speaking for what is most likely to happen, it's definitely going to be Prod 15. The fact that USPSA sent out those surveys points to that IMO. I also happen to agree with Prod 15 as a concept as well, better matching IPSC. I've mentioned before but would also like to see CO become 15 rounds instead of 140mm too, otherwise it's redundant with LO (which I'd bet good money becomes a permanent division without really any changes from provisional)

This for sure.

Production stopping at 10 rounds is just dumb, and 15 rounds for CO seems the logical thing to do given as the most popular size carry gun is the 4” barrel shorter grip that generally has 15 round mags (G19,M&P compact,CZP10C, etc) 

[Joe4d]

Should go ahead and align with IPSC divisions,,, save everyone alot of trouble when IPSC awards another group the US region.

 

[Runswithwood1]

My bet is production 15 will be the new result. Although shooting A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want is always fun, it sucks at the end of the day to see how many points were left standing out in charlie zone. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Runswithwood1
Best proofreading is after the fact

[IVC]

The answer of "lim. Min." wasn't about competitiveness, it was about how the OP is worded. If you said "minor only" or something like that, that would be a different story. 
 

Production 15 is likely coming. The 10 round legal limits were gone nationally in 2004, and they are about to be gone in the holdout states through legal cases and the recent Supreme Court precedent in Bruen. 
 

But the real question is why suddenly all these threads about tinkering with the divisions? What's the big deal about having a division with smaller participation? When you go to a restaurant, do you write reviews suggesting they drop the menu items that are less commonly ordered? Or we just leave people enjoying what their pleasure is and celebrate variety of choices?

Edited October 2, 2023 by IVC
Someone edited my original text...

[truespode]

9 hours ago, IVC said:

Production 15 is likely coming. The 10 round legal limits were gone nationally in 2004, and they are about to be gone in the holdout states through legal cases and the recent Supreme Court precedent in Bruen. 
 

But the real question is why suddenly all these threads about tinkering with the divisions? What's the big deal about having a division with smaller participation? When you go to a restaurant, do you write reviews suggesting they drop the menu items that are less commonly ordered? Or we just leave people enjoying what their pleasure is and celebrate variety of choices?

 

I shoot CO and I will be moving to LO regardless of what the changes are but I would like to see CO go to 15 too. LO stay 141. I like the idea of iron lo cap (15 being lo cap) and iron hi cap then optics lo cap and optics hi cap. I think everyone gets caught up in the literal interpretation of the names and not what is trying to be accomplished with the division. 

As to having divisions with no participation, I completely I agree. It really doesn't matter if there are 15 divisions. Yes, there is Nationals implications but honestly that impacts less than 1,000 people so if we only recognize the highest participation divisions for Nationals that shouldn't be a problem except some complainers. With the exception of SS and Revolver I think if there is less than 10% representation at Area matches then it does not get a place at a National. Single Stack and Revolver are the two most influential pistol types in history so recognizing them I think is fair.

I know that more divisions "water down" things but I don't think it matters really. Those who want to compete at the highest level will gravitate towards certain divisions and those who want to play with certain configurations will go towards more specialized divisions. Even if we had a Sharks with Lasers division it wouldn't matter

 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, truespode said:

 

 I think if there is less than 10% representation at Area matches then it does not get a place at a National. 

 

 

 

 

I really like this idea, but for all divisions. And I am a long time SS shooter

 

[IVC]

2 hours ago, truespode said:

Yes, there is Nationals implications

...

if there is less than 10% representation at Area matches then it does not get a place at a National. 

...
I know that more divisions "water down" things but I don't think it matters really.

I'll double down and ask: "why does it matter?" 

 

There is no effect on other divisions, the top guys will shoot whatever their primary division is, the competition will be the same, the overall standings will be lower for those in slower divisions. So what? We still have silly class recognition within divisions, yet we are talking about divisions being a problem...

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, IVC said:

I'll double down and ask: "why does it matter?" 

 

There is no effect on other divisions, the top guys will shoot whatever their primary division is, the competition will be the same, the overall standings will be lower for those in slower divisions. So what? We still have silly class recognition within divisions, yet we are talking about divisions being a problem...

 

 

The reason whole divisions can be a problem is when the organization sets aside a date, reserves a facility, fronts all the money for a nationals, and then it doesn't fill, until they let a brand new division in amongst five divisions that it seems people don't care much about shooting anymore.

 

So when we're talking Nationals, it matters because of financial considerations. If I remember right iron sight Nationals was about 40 people short of filling up until they allowed limited optics in. If they don't allow limited optics in, that's a $13,000 hickey. Since Nationals is supposed to be a losing proposition anyway (I'm not real sure why that is but that's what they always say), losing an extra $13,000 is definitely something that membership and the bod should address. The easiest way to address it is not to have Nationals for divisions that will not fill up an event

 

You are right as far as area matches or your local club match goes and if we have 100 divisions it doesn't matter. But Nationals is a different animal

 

Maybe on the divisions no one shoots like l ten, single stack, revolver, production, and  even limited at this point, an area match could be designated as the Nationals for that division

Edited October 2, 2023 by RJH

[truespode]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

Maybe on the divisions no one shoots like l ten, single stack, revolver, production, and  even limited at this point, an area match could be designated as the Nationals for that division

 

Or, as some have proposed, just one large Nationals instead of several? Then people have to choose their preferred platform instead of shooting in multiple divisions. Don't recognize awards for any division under a certain amount of participation.

 

I think part of our sport that is fun is more divisions and if I wanted to I could get C class in all of them

[RJH]

1 hour ago, truespode said:

 

Or, as some have proposed, just one large Nationals instead of several? Then people have to choose their preferred platform instead of shooting in multiple divisions. Don't recognize awards for any division under a certain amount of participation.

 

I think part of our sport that is fun is more divisions and if I wanted to I could get C class in all of them

 

What is large to you?  1000-1500 people or so? If that number is close where are you finding a range and staff for an event that size? 500 seems to be pushing the limits as is, but I could definitely be missing something 

 

Those questions are not rhetorical, I am interested in your thoughts 

 

Also, if you are not going to recognize low turnout divisions, I would favor dropping them all together, at a nationals

Edited October 2, 2023 by RJH

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

I still don’t think 15 rounds for production is going to do anything. 
Will it bring 50% of the people that left back ?

will it draw new shooters to shoot production 15 rather than a division with a dot ?

I don’t think it will. 
if production leaves 10rds behind it has to fix the problem not just put a bandaid on it. 
Not like the power that be listen but they need to get ahead of the problems. 
At this point why not just say 141mm mags ?

But this is just me thinking.

idk. But I do know I won’t go back because I have 5more rounds in a mag. 
now I have 24 and the way .40 brass is getting harder to get and the range pick up has a lot of neck splits  

idk maybe I shoot it as a poor man’s A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want. 
but without a plan for the devil penny if future divisions and a vision of how to help shooters progress. 
I really don’t know what’s best 
 

[barry]

27 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

What is large to you?  1000-1500 people or so? If that number is close where are you finding a range and staff for an event that size? 500 seems to be pushing the limits as is, but I could definitely be missing something 

 

Those questions are not rhetorical, I am interested in your thoughts 

 

Also, if you are not going to recognize low turnout divisions, I would favor dropping them all together, at a nationals

Well if the current crop of ros weren't working 3 or 4 nationals it might work. 5 days of shooting?? Not sure but did back to back a few times.

[truespode]

26 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

What is large to you?  1000-1500 people or so? If that number is close where are you finding a range and staff for an event that size? 500 seems to be pushing the limits as is, but I could definitely be missing something 

 

Those questions are not rhetorical, I am interested in your thoughts 

 

Also, if you are not going to recognize low turnout divisions, I would favor dropping them all together, at a nationals

 

Honestly, I haven't put the thought into it. I know Ben Berry is a proponent of it.

 

I think the money would be less than 1,000 competitors but they isn't something I have data to back up. I do recognize a lot of names when looking at nationals so one big one would reduce the overlap.

 

Not trying to defend the idea, just mentioning some other alternatives.

 

Ultimately, I don't think we need to have a National for every division and at the same time an fine with a lot of divisions.

 

One thing I do like is that we are a small enough sport we can make changes and try different things.

[Racinready300ex]

I think in time major goes away and all divisions become minor only.