Hi cap iron sight minor guns division, what's it going to look like?

[whan]

11 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

My analogy was smaller, just centric to uspsa and the numbers of divisions within it. A pie graph with 6 slices, or divisions just looks better to some people than one with 10 slices in it. People feel if their slice is smaller, then someone else's had to get bigger and that naturally leads to unhappiness.

 

Remember Buddhists? Comparison is the root of unhappiness.

 

I wasn't referring to the place of competition into the wider gun and firearms culture. Which trends you're aware of and accurately interpretting. As an aside, I'd say this is because tactical/defensive crap can't really be scored or measured in the same way a match is. it's binary, success or failure. And it's often practiced alone in a bay or with very few people. A national org, with scores and classifications is a much better measurement of your overall ability with a pistol than just copying standards/drills/scenarios in a bay by yourself to meet some score another dude set in his own vacuum. 

 

Ah got it - yes makes sense re: the USPSA division pie. And yes, I think one nice thing is that with USPSA being a national org with established history, classifications actually mean something. While they can be gamed *cough* tony cowden *cough*, generally a GM shooter is better than M, which is better than A, and so forth. And so you can typically find that an A class shooter is going to be someone with pretty solid/decent skills at a minimum. 

 

10 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

ELO?

 

Relative ranking system similar to what they use for chess - ELO is the name of guy who invented it. Essentially you get a constantly changing score that moves based on wins/losses and the strength of your opponents. 

[BritinUSA]

The advantage of ELO is that the entire match score would be counted, not just a single (classifier) stage.

 

The current classification system generates a lot of revenue and is almost entirely automated. An ELO system (while also automated) would probably not generate any additional income outside of the match activity fee.

 

Personally, I think ELO would be a better system, though I predict some tweaking of the methodology to get accurate results.

[MHicks]

Would the ELO system be meaningful for the average shooter. Or would it only work for comparing those close to the top?

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, MHicks said:

Would the ELO system be meaningful for the average shooter. Or would it only work for comparing those close to the top?

 

This is a solid question. If you went with something like an IDPA style classifier and at the end of the day you knew your hit Factor was 5.4 for that classifier and that made you a b class, that keeps life pretty simple. The ELO stuff seems like a lot of a headache to me, with no real advantage over USPSA or idpa's classification systems.

 

I don't see any real reason to complicate this anymore than it needs to be. The only thing people are really looking for with a classification system is a goal to move to, or a prize at a major.

 

I can't see anything that would make it easier on a match director, or easier on scoring than the IDPA one stage/match system. 

 

I think trying to search for the perfect system is just a way to complicate things that don't need to be complicated, and good enough would probably be just fine

[RJH]

41 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The advantage of ELO is that the entire match score would be counted, not just a single (classifier) stage.

 

The current classification system generates a lot of revenue and is almost entirely automated. An ELO system (while also automated) would probably not generate any additional income outside of the match activity fee.

 

Personally, I think ELO would be a better system, though I predict some tweaking of the methodology to get accurate results.

 

 

We are talking pscl here so there is no activity or classifier fees. And I think the goal is even if there is a classification system at some point, to not make fees a thing there either

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, MHicks said:

Would the ELO system be meaningful for the average shooter. Or would it only work for comparing those close to the top?

the problem with the ELO concept is that it would make it near impossible to sandbag (or grandbag) for the retards people that care about that stuff and get motivated to win b class at an area match.

[MHicks]

I just look at any classification system as a way for most shooters to measure in general their improvement, gradually moving up the ladder hopefully. Yes there are some out there either grandbagging or sandbagging but that's not the average shooter. If you're honest with yourself it does give you an idea where you rank amongst all shooters along with your performance at bigger matches.

[RJH]

One other thought, of you had an IDPA, one stage/match type classifier, it would be easy to see the absolute top hit Factor. And when a new high hit Factor was made everyone's percentage could adjust. Basically a never ending match

[whan]

I think there's a place for both ELO and classifications. I do think classifications are the more broadly valuable of the two, as it sets consistent standards that are meaningful and accessible to all competitors. As I've mentioned before, it's like the belt system in martial arts - even if you're new and aren't going to ever be competitive nationally, it means something to go from C to B class, just as it would moving out of being a white belt.

 

But ELO adds a decent bit of extra information for the top shooters out there, as there can be a wide range of skill output within the M and GM classes. It also in theory actually helps prevent grandbagging/sandbagging as it becomes apparent when your ELO doesn't really match your classification (either too high or too low)

[rowdyb]

Quote

ELo 

Elo is straight up match performance, and it can capture data outside of your local club. That's its value. Who can beat who, connected across everyone who shoots. I'd much rather be rated off my match performance than my stand and shoot.... and I'm classified 93% in a division.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Elo is straight up match performance, and it can capture data outside of your local club. That's its value. Who can beat who, connected across everyone who shoots. I'd much rather be rated off my match performance than my stand and shoot.... and I'm classified 93% in a division.

 

I can understand that, and I am at the point of not really caring at all but my national status is. I just want to know who I beat at the match I was actually shooting. But, I do think there are others who really do like know as best as is possible how they shoot against people across the nation, without actually shooting against them. However, I'm not real sure that one  classification system weighs a whole lot better than the other for that

 

I guess, as time goes by, heads up shooting is all I really care about anymore. I'm not saying that's for everyone, just is where I happen to be

[Fishbreath]

3 hours ago, MHicks said:

Would the ELO system be meaningful for the average shooter. Or would it only work for comparing those close to the top?

 

It's generally accurate across the spectrum, in my experience, or at least the version I've developed is. (There's an IPSC Elo site whose algorithm isn't as good, as far as I can tell with my limited knowledge of international shooting.)

 

There's all kinds of cleverness a truly first-party system could indulge in, though—one that springs to mind immediately is pretending that all the runs of individual classifiers (maybe encourage one with a 'classifier of the month' kind of thing) are pseudo-matches. You can then run the rating math on those pseudo-matches, which helps to level out the natural variations in Elo that arise when most participants don't interact with each other, and ensure that a rating in New Mexico means the same thing as a rating in New Hampshire.

[happygunner77]

People still aren't going to shoot Prod 15, it's still too much mag changes and it's iron sights. These people who whine about are already comfortable with CO or PCC now. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by happygunner77

[RJH]

Well, I guess this question has now been answered and, production 15 it is. Anybody going to shoot it come february?

[bulm540]

I may dabble on it but I ain’t going back to irons full time. 

[NoahBeretta]

I only shoot 1-2 USPSA matches a year due to scheduling conflict with Church, while IDPA is on Saturdays. But when I do shoot USPSA I'll go from A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want to Prod 15.

[PA_USPSA]

I'll shoot Production 15 in Pennsylvania.  New Jersey has a 10 round magazine limit, so I'll either shoot Production (10) or Limited 10.  I'm still trying to decide.

[fcernese]

“A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want‘

 

gets me every time!

[Racinready300ex]

I've been heavily debating Pro15 vs LO for 2024. Both seem fun, right now I'm leaning LO but I'll probably change my mind again before the season really starts.