What should carry optics be?

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Nobody909 said:

You are correct, sir.

In what way has IPSC lost it's way?

 

 

You can check some of my post in this thread for my opinion, but if your opinion is aligning USPSA with ipsc for carry ops is a good thing, that's ok with me. This thread was just wondering what other people thought carryops should be, so on that subject I have absolutely zero argument, as I was looking for opinions

[Nobody909]

Just now, ddc said:

 

IPSC and USPSA have diverged to the point that I believe any attempt to narrow the gap would result in a whole lot of pushback; more than we have ever seen.

I assume from your posts that you would want USPSA to make most of the concessions. That will never fly in the USA. Sorry.

I don't believe that USPSA and IPSC are as far apart as you allude them to being.

What about IPSC is bad and how do they differ from USPSA?

 

 

[BritinUSA]

USPSA will never have the same rule-book as IPSC. Which is why I think USPSA should relinquish its membership in IPSC. This would allow a new org to be created that aligns with world-wide rules.

USPSA would be free to do whatever it wants plus the benefit to their finances as there would be no IPSC dues to pay each year.

[BritinUSA]

4 hours ago, shred said:

Kind of funny the "what should CO change into?" thread was over the CO Nationals weekend

Strange that there has not been much chatter about CO Nationals on this forum. Is there someplace that's posting information about the match ?

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Strange that there has not been much chatter about CO Nationals on this forum. Is there someplace that's posting information about the match ?

 

 

That seemed odd to me as well. I kept up with the results on practicscore, but it was interesting that there was, as far as I saw, no post on the ongoings at the match for the most popular division in the sport

[ddc]

24 minutes ago, Nobody909 said:

I don't believe that USPSA and IPSC are as far apart as you allude them to being.

What about IPSC is bad and how do they differ from USPSA?

 

 

 

I don't think that IPSC is "bad". They have just chosen a different ruleset.

 

The primary problem with aligning the USPSA ruleset with the IPSC ruleset is the equipment division differences.

 

I'm not all that familiar with the IPSC rules but it appears to me that it would be much easier for an IPSC legal gun to find a place to play in USPSA than going in the other direction.

 

Imposing the IPSC equipment rules on the USPSA would make illegal a whole lot of USPSA guns.

 

The rest of the IPSC rules such as course design, etc. I think people could live with for the most part (if they so desired) but the equipment differences kill any chance of reconciliation unless IPSC adopts the USPSA equipment divisions and that ain't going to happen either.

 

Edited to add: I don't believe I have any bias against IPSC. I will admit that as one who is used to the USPSA rules that the IPSC rules seem somewhat restrictive but if the equipment differences were manageable and matches were available I would love to participate. But... they're not.

Edited June 27, 2023 by ddc

[Joe4d]

I like what the BOD did with production then CO weight limits,,, basically get rid of them. Wanna shoot a 50 oz gun with 9 minor ammo ? go for it,, not any advantage to it for USPSA for most people. We are talking minor here, 38 ish oz ? doubt any more wieght than that will matter on the score.
Barrel length wont matter, with an optic,, go for it with your 7" barrel..
Cant really say no modifications, because factories now produce hot rod models,, wouldnt be fair.. 
SOooo for CO,,, Id just call it what it is Open minor..  No comps or barrel ports, slide mounted optics,  scored minor...  126mm mags for 9mm 140 for 40, 170 for 45.   
ANyway, If I do shoot USPSA again,, I'll be the guy with the XDM , havent decided on CO or open,, its the adjustable sight model, not so sure how that adapter for that sight works.

[Racinready300ex]

This is what I think of when I think of CO and LO rules. Everything has revolved around making the guns easier and easier to shoot. Sure, Nils still wins...well not really lol. But, more mods, heavier guns, lighter triggers, higher and higher capacities, optics, now magwells all center around making the shooting part of the shooting sport easier. 

 

And then there is PCC...Oof. 

[GigG]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

This is what I think of when I think of CO and LO rules. Everything has revolved around making the guns easier and easier to shoot. Sure, Nils still wins...well not really lol. But, more mods, heavier guns, lighter triggers, higher and higher capacities, optics, now magwells all center around making the shooting part of the shooting sport easier. 

 

This has always been the case in USPSA. It is called innovation.

[BritinUSA]

The sport is supposed to be challenging;

 

Having trouble with reloads ? Just increase magazine capacity from 10 to 23 rounds.

 

Can't control muzzle-flip ? Put a lead weight with a 12¢ LED on the end of your gun and call it a weapon light.

 

Want faster reloads ? Put the magazines anywhere on the belt instead of behind the hip.

 

Not happy with your gun ? Allow almost unlimited modifications to your so-called Production gun.

 

Now they bring in LO, which is essentially the same division as CO with a magwell and a SA trigger.

 

There was a time not so long ago when this forum would be lit up with discussions about Nationals and World Shoots. Now there is barely any mention, it's become less of a sport, and more of a hobby.

[BritinUSA]

2 minutes ago, GigG said:

This has always been the case in USPSA. It is called innovation.

Innovation is for Open division and to a lesser extent, Limited. The Production divisions were designed for off-the-shelf guns, not highly customized versions thereof.

[Racinready300ex]

22 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

This has always been the case in USPSA. It is called innovation.

 

There is a point where innovation jumps the shark. 

[Ben3]

27 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Innovation is for Open division and to a lesser extent, Limited. The Production divisions were designed for off-the-shelf guns, not highly customized versions thereof.

 

This right here. The purpose of divisions is to allow people to choose at what level of customization they want to play in the sport. Allowing Limited-like modification in Production and Carry Optics has basically morphed them over time from something to distinct to something almost identical. This includes inane rulings like the idea that a thumb rest is not a thumb rest because it replaces the takedown pin in the gun. Saying "thumbrests aren't allowed in CO" and then having Christian Sailer win CO Nationals with a 2" metal flange on the side of his gun is confusing to people. It seems like we can't even define what a thumbrest or a compensator or a flashlight even is.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Ben3

[THS]

31 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The sport is supposed to be challenging;

 

Having trouble with reloads ? Just increase magazine capacity from 10 to 23 rounds.

 

Can't control muzzle-flip ? Put a lead weight with a 12¢ LED on the end of your gun and call it a weapon light.

 

Want faster reloads ? Put the magazines anywhere on the belt instead of behind the hip.

 

Not happy with your gun ? Allow almost unlimited modifications to your so-called Production gun.

 

Now they bring in LO, which is essentially the same division as CO with a magwell and a SA trigger.

 

There was a time not so long ago when this forum would be lit up with discussions about Nationals and World Shoots. Now there is barely any mention, it's become less of a sport, and more of a hobby.

You missed the part where Accuracy is no longer weighted in any sense of reality.  I have shot lots of matches with 50 yard standards- I started in 1991.    In that era you had Open (with a Tasco PDP) or limited and iron sights.   A springfield P9 in 9x21 was cutting edge.

 

Today any shot past 25 yards gets strange looks, and dots have changed what it takes to be "accurate" in a revolutionary way.  May be different where you are, but I doubt it.

 

As I put in my early post:  CO and Production should have holsters and mags behind the Superior Iliac Crest, put some capacity limit or mag length in place, and eliminate the flashlights as steps to creating Divisions that are unique and present different challenges.   Then pick your game and get after it.

 

I think one of the reasons CO is popular is because you dont have to buy a reloader to be competitive as everyone is minor, and a 50 something ounce 9mm is about as flat as an open gun any way.  

 

Full disclosure-  I'm shooting CO too- but at 60 my eyes dont focus on the front sight very well so to play the game (again) I went the dot route.  

Edited June 27, 2023 by THS

[shred]

There was a 2-target stack and US popper at 35 yards at the CO Nats.  Many shooters chose to make a 20 yard run to avoid those shots (some other shots got easier too so it wasn't the only reason, but that plan was likely a net loser).  All in all, there were several targets (including US poppers) around 25yd and most of the targets seemed to be at 12-18, including partials.  You can check the HF's on PS to see how well hosing worked.

 

When we used to have 50 yard standards and everyone that didn't cut it too close at ammo reloading shot Major, it was assumed everyone's gear could shoot A's & C's well enough at 50.  These days with some factory "Acceptable Combat Accuracy" guns, that's more questionable, especially with minor only needing more A's.

 

[GigG]

On 6/27/2023 at 11:49 AM, Racinready300ex said:

There is a point where innovation jumps the shark. 

 

And there were probably people that said that when Plaxco stuck a comp on a .38 Super 1911 and I know there were when people Barnhart stuck a Propoint RDS on one.

[Racinready300ex]

On 7/3/2023 at 4:31 PM, GigG said:

 

And there were probably people that said that when Plaxco stuck a comp on a .38 Super 1911 and I know there were when people Barnhart stuck a Propoint RDS on one.

 

Probably, and I'd imagine comps are the next thing we need to add to a division as I see lots of people on social media adding "carry comps" to their guns. Certainly our 125 pf ammo out of 55 oz guns with sub 2 lbs triggers, thumb rests, optics, magwells, etc are still too difficult to shoot. 

[echotango]

9 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Probably, and I'd imagine comps are the next thing we need to add to a division as I see lots of people on social media adding "carry comps" to their guns. Certainly our 125 pf ammo out of 55 oz guns with sub 2 lbs triggers, thumb rests, optics, magwells, etc are still too difficult to shoot. 

Don't forget the racker....

 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, echotango said:

Don't forget the racker....

 

all lo and co guns are already required to have a slide racker.

[IVC]

Both CO and LO are fine, red dots are here to stay. And if anything, it's the Production that should get more in line with CO since production guns these days come out with larger capacity magazines and all sorts of small enhancements. It should be literally that Production and Limited mimic CO and LO (give or take major scoring in LO, I'm on the fence with that one). 

 

Anyone wanting to shoot lo-cap divisions or irons has plenty of choices. 

[IVC]

As for the gear location and setups, it's going in the right direction. Who cares if the magazine is behind the hip or not, or what type of holster it is? Remember SS when there was no DOH holsters and it was the *front* of the grip that had to be above the belt? What's the purpose?

 

Just let it be, let people run it the way they like it. It's not going to make anyone a better shooter and it's all equitable anyways because everyone gets to reposition the gear the way the like it. The same goes for trinkets such as magwells and thumb rests - it's easy enough to add pseudo-thumb rest and pseudo-magwell. And nobody ever won a major match because they pushed the limit with the gear. 

[Racinready300ex]

6 hours ago, IVC said:

And nobody ever won a major match because they pushed the limit with the gear. 

 

We can probably point to cases of guys pushing the limits and loosing major matches. Poppers not falling and chrono'ing 125 pf come to mind.

[RennBaer]

On 6/27/2023 at 12:28 PM, BritinUSA said:

Want faster reloads ? Put the magazines anywhere on the belt instead of behind the hip.

 

On 6/27/2023 at 12:58 PM, THS said:

As I put in my early post:  CO and Production should have holsters and mags behind the Superior Iliac Crest, put some capacity limit or mag length in place, and eliminate the flashlights as steps to creating Divisions that are unique and present different challenges.   Then pick your game and get after it.

 

This is where I disagree if we're really trying to make a division like carry optics "realistic" in today's world with so many more people carrying AIWB, and with USPSA allowing AIWB at matches. I carry my spare mag everyday at around the 11:00-11:30 position, so allowing mags forward of the hip is a familiar position to me, and also to many others. Most LE and military folk also have their pistol mags positioned forward of their hip on their duty belts, so it's also relevant to that crowd. I wonder how many people these days are actually carrying spare pistol mags behind their hip outside of a competition setting?

Edited August 14, 2023 by RennBaer

[Joe4d]

Just call it open minor, No comps or ports, must fit in a box, and a realistic weight limit, too low for an all steel 2011. even though I dont think anything over 40 ish oz is any kinda advantage on an actual scoreboard with minor ammo. IMO there is a diminishing return at a point.. What you gain in splits you lose in transitions.

[Racinready300ex]

44 minutes ago, RennBaer said:

 

 

This is where I disagree if we're really trying to make a division like carry optics "realistic" in today's world with so many more people carrying AIWB, and with USPSA allowing AIWB at matches. I carry my spare mag everyday at around the 11:00-11:30 position, so allowing mags forward of the hip is a familiar position to me, and also to many others. Most LE and military folk also have their pistol mags positioned forward of their hip on their duty belts, so it's also relevant to that crowd. I wonder how many people these days are actually carrying spare pistol mags behind their hip outside of a competition setting?

 

I agree but with somewhat different reasoning. I do think it's cool to be able to run AIWB if I want but I realize almost no one actually does that at a match. At the end of the day where the gear is on your belt doesn't really effect your score so I don't see much point in regulating it. If anything you potentially add some risk of 180 violations on the draw. I've seen that bite open shooters before. 

 

Something we probably should change is allow thigh straps. Again there really isn't a reason not to allow them.