What should carry optics be?

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

If it was up to me carry optics would mirror ipsc rules as would all other divisions.    I still don’t understand our rules vary so much from ipsc.  

[Sarge]

8 minutes ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

If it was up to me carry optics would mirror ipsc rules as would all other divisions.    I still don’t understand our rules vary so much from ipsc.  

Because ‘Merica

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

8 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Because ‘Merica

[BritinUSA]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Because ‘Merica

Partly because IPSC used to change the rule books every damn year. IPSC later opted to only change the rule-books during General Assemblies held in conjunction with a World Shoot (every 3 years).

 

Not sure if that is still the case.

[RJH]

Mirroring ipsc rules sounds horrible. Not that everything they do is wrong, but in divisions like production and carry optics, not allowing a Glock 34 because it's too racy, but allowing tangfolio stock twos and such, doesn't make any sense. 

[xrayfk05]

A G34 Too racy? The barrel is simply too long. (over 5")

[RJH]

26 minutes ago, xrayfk05 said:

A G34 Too racy? The barrel is simply too long. (over 5")

 

 

Exactly. Glock 34 predates ipsc production. So apparently ipsc felt a Glock 34 was too racy when they built box/made rules. 

 

Kind of a dumb ruleset to mirror is all I am saying 

Edited June 24, 2023 by RJH

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

30 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Exactly. Glock 34 predates ipsc production. So apparently ipsc felt a Glock 34 was too racy when they built box/made rules. 

 

Kind of a dumb ruleset to mirror is all I am saying 

Because they felt like a 34 was too long?   Got any better reasons to not follow their rule set?   

[stick]

At the end of the day, USPSA is just a game.  No matter what the rules are, people are going to find a loophole or a way around them.  Limiting the magazine to 15 rounds is nonsense.  My CZ mags are 19 rounds from the factory.  I have one Henning +2 extension on my primary mag.  All three of my other mags are factory with the gold basepad (P10F Comp Ready) with 19 rounds.  

Reloads...unless you're shooting open, most stages are going to require a reload in CO.  So why drop the mag capacity to 15?

 

Gamers are going to game!

[RJH]

1 hour ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Because they felt like a 34 was too long?   Got any better reasons to not follow their rule set?   

 

Ruleset in general, sure.

 

Glock 34 and XDM 5.25 too gamer, but $2000 CZ and tangfolio is good to go

 

 race holsters in carryops and production is dumb, in fairness though doh type holsters by USPSA was a move in the wrong direction 

 

Can't leave fault lines is another dumb one, though not equipment related

 

126 mm mags in limited

 

Varying pf for major 

 

Only turtle targets

 

I could probably find more but, this is quite a bit of dumb and it just what I remember offhand

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:08 PM, BritinUSA said:

It's worth noting that despite the stringent rules in IPSC, both Production & Production Optics are extremely popular.

 

sure, but production is almost completely dead here. I suspect that the different laws and costs outside the US may have led to some different equipment preferences too.

[BritinUSA]

While you may consider IPSC rules to be 'dumb', it's worth noting that far more people shoot under IPSC rules than USPSA.

 

Some might consider it 'dumb' that USPSA has two divisions (CO & LO) that are essentially the same except for mag-wells and SA triggers.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Because they felt like a 34 was too long?   Got any better reasons to not follow their rule set?   

The best reason to not follow their ruleset is   'merica, f*** yeah!

I suggest we do things the way americans prefer to do them.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, BritinUSA said:

Some might consider it 'dumb' that USPSA has two divisions (CO & LO) that are essentially the same except for mag-wells and SA triggers.

 

I definitely think that is dumb.

[BritinUSA]

Just now, motosapiens said:

sure, but production is almost completely dead here. I suspect that the different laws and costs outside the US may have led to some different equipment preferences too.

I suspect that cost was one of the biggest contributor to the success of Production (and now ProdOptics). While there are expensive production guns, the cost of participation in those divisions is orders of magnitude lower than others. 
 

This is one of the reasons that I was so opposed to allowing more customization in those divisions, it just raises the average cost of competing.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, BritinUSA said:

I suspect that cost was one of the biggest contributor to the success of Production (and now ProdOptics). While there are expensive production guns, the cost of participation in those divisions is orders of magnitude lower than others. 
 

This is one of the reasons that I was so opposed to allowing more customization in those divisions, it just raises the average cost of competing.

That's a very reasonable point, upon which I have 2 observations:

1. afaik, costs are significantly higher in many other countries than in america (please correct me if my impression is incorrect).

 

2. Not all modifications are the same. Being overly restrictive ends up meaning that someone can't spend a couple hundo fixing up a $600 gun, and their only real choice is to buy a semi-custom race-only gun like a shadow2. That is dumb imho. People who own glocks and similar crappy guns should be able to do lots of minor stuff to their gun rather than feel compelled to spend twice as much on a race gun.

 

If you don't allow a $150 aftermarket trigger kit and a $50 bigger mag release, then everyone will be forced to buy the factory gun with the trigger kit and mag release already installed for $400 more.

 

[RJH]

15 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

While you may consider IPSC rules to be 'dumb', it's worth noting that far more people shoot under IPSC rules than USPSA.

 

Some might consider it 'dumb' that USPSA has two divisions (CO & LO) that are essentially the same except for mag-wells and SA triggers.

 

 

One reason that many people shoot in ipsc though is if they don't shoot it or something like it, they cannot own a gun in their country. Of course that is not the case here. Nobody that wants to shoot competitively here is not shooting USPSA because they prefer ipsc rules, well I guess maybe you and one other guy, but by far not the majority

 

I agree having limited optics and  carry optics was not in my opinion the best solution to a problem. Allowing Sao guns in carry optics, with or without mag wells, was in my opinion the best solution, but the majority didn't see it that way. 

 

Also, I don't consider all ipsc rules dumb, but to completely mirror them would be

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

Nobody that wants to shoot competitively here is not shooting USPSA because they prefer ipsc rules, well I guess maybe you and one other guy, but by far not the majority

 

there might be a couple guys that aren't shooting USPSA because they partnered with anti-gun democrats to try to get nationals cancelled..... lolz.

[RJH]

20 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I suspect that cost was one of the biggest contributor to the success of Production (and now ProdOptics). While there are expensive production guns, the cost of participation in those divisions is orders of magnitude lower than others. 
 

This is one of the reasons that I was so opposed to allowing more customization in those divisions, it just raises the average cost of competing.

 

So I just checked the CZ Accu Shadow 2 optics ready from the custom shop is 2500 bucks. The MasterPiece arms limited gun starts at 3 Grand. By the time you add in a DOT your initial cost for a high end production optics gun is the same as a limited gun.

 

So the cost of not allowing customization is a $3000 carryops gun.

 

A Glock 34, with a light on it and a Johnny Glock trigger is about a thousand bucks, but to racy according to ipsc

 

 

 

Kind of on that limited optics versus carry optics note, you can pick up a prodigy for about 1300 bucks put a few hundred dollars worth of parts in it and still come out cheaper than a CZ custom Accu Shadow, but we're trying to keep carryouts cheap so we're not allowing Sao guns

 

 

[BritinUSA]

The Accu-shadow is not on the approved IPSC production gun list as it is a custom made gun.

 

As I stated there are expensive guns on the production list, but they are ALL production guns, none of them are hand-built/custom models. My Q5 was well below $1000 and was extremely accurate.

 

Glock 34 is not on the list as the barrel exceeds the max limit. There are plenty of other blocks that do comply.

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

So I just checked the CZ Accu Shadow 2 optics ready from the custom shop is 2500 bucks. The MasterPiece arms limited gun starts at 3 Grand. By the time you add in a DOT your initial cost for a high end production optics gun is the same as a limited gun.

an accushadow is completely unnecessary fwiw. The shadow2 out of the box for $1500 is 100% competitive. I understand tho that since the accushadow exists, some people feel compelled to buy it.

 

Currently there is a broad mix of guns in CO. There are accu-shadows, and there are plain vanilla shadows like mine, and there are tricked up glocks and legions and walthers and s&w's and caniks.  But we all know that limited optics is going to be dominated by custom guns that cost $5+k, Whereas if the rules stay where they are, CO will continue to have a broad diversity of practical and carryable guns (and a few accushadows).

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, OpenshooterMclass4lyfe said:

Because they felt like a 34 was too long?   Got any better reasons to not follow their rule set?   

Non humanoid targets, limited sight pictures, trigger weights, Following guidelines from an org that is made up of many non gun friendly countries who could be telling us what to do to "standardize" the sport.

[BritinUSA]

23 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

If you don't allow a $150 aftermarket trigger kit and a $50 bigger mag release, then everyone will be forced to buy the factory gun with the trigger kit and mag release already installed for $400 more.

 

Aftermarket triggers are permitted in IPSC Production divisions, bigger mag releases are permitted in IPSC as long as they are available from the original manufacturer (Tanfoglio does this with Xtreme parts from Grauffel).

 

Aftermarket grip panels are also permitted.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The Accu-shadow is not on the approved IPSC production gun list as it is a custom made gun.

 

As I stated there are expensive guns on the production list, but they are ALL production guns, none of them are hand-built/custom models. My Q5 was well below $1000 and was extremely accurate.

 

Glock 34 is not on the list as the barrel exceeds the max limit. There are plenty of other blocks that do comply.

 

And as noted the Glock 34 was in production  before the ipsc production list was created. In other words ipsc thought the 34 was to racy and built rules to outlaw it. I've often wondered if the head of ipsc just didn't like Gaston or something, especially since for 20 years Glock was also stuck with a 5 pound pull trigger weight, and dasa guns had a 5 lb and then a two or so pound trigger pull. 

 

And I don't even shoot or really like glocks, but that's all bs

[motosapiens]

Just now, BritinUSA said:

Aftermarket triggers are permitted in IPSC Production divisions, bigger mag releases are permitted in IPSC as long as they are available from the original manufacturer (Tanfoglio does this with Xtreme parts from Grauffel).

 

Aftermarket grip panels are also permitted.

fair enough. thanks for the update. It sounds like ipsc has gotten more reasonable over the years, although it's stupid to restrict parts like mag releases to original mfrs. People's hands come in different shapes and sizes.